How to view ratings objectively?

[jayapple]

There are many audio systems priced at several thousand US dollars each, but their ratings are not as good as those of multimedia audio systems that cost only a few hundred US dollars.

How should we objectively view these ratings?

How would those who spent tens of thousands of US dollars on these brand-name audio systems feel?

Here are a few representatives of high-priced but low-rated speakers that I have simply listed.

In fact, there are many, many more. This phenomenon is rife in the speaker industry.

 

[voodooless]

his phenomenon is rife in the speaker industry.

Expensive stuff is often made to stand out, not only visually, but also tonally. The result is that, objectively, they often do not score well.

How would those who spent tens of thousands of US dollars on these brand-name audio systems feel?

That's their problem, isn't it? They could have done their research before they bought the stuff. Or maybe they just like the looks and find that more important, or they actually like how it sounds... who knows...

 

[SigbergAudio]

I think it's important to understand that the preference score isn't an absolute measure of audio quality. If you want to objectively view the ratings, you need to understand the full spinorama and the reason behind why the preference score ended up as it did.

 

[sergeauckland]

If you're selling in the high end, not only do you have to have the price, but you have to have the expensive looks, or have a story to tell about why your stuff looks like it's made by badgers in a shed. (Audionote?) Having a Good Sound not only isn't enough but it doesn't stand out from all the others, mostly mid price. A customer will notice that these expensive loudspeakers sound different to all the other (better) ones, and it's the salesman's job to persuade the punter that different always equals better, especially when it's more expensive!

it's not just HiFi, Rolex anyone? (It's actually worse than a £10 Timex at what I would have thought was it's primary purpose, that of telling the time.)

S.

 

[jayapple]

Here, speakers have become a luxury item.
They often cost several thousand or even tens of thousands of US dollars. Keep in mind that a car doesn't cost much more than that. But speakers are just a few speakers and some wood. The technological content in them can never exceed that of a car. Even more absurdly, these speakers seem to have strayed from their purpose.

Speakers are about science; they should accurately reproduce sound. Many people would find it hard to understand what's so special about speakers that cost tens of thousands of dollars. Don't compare them to luxury cars. Expensive cars have powerful engines, with multiple cylinders and carbon fiber, and luxurious interiors, which are significantly different from ordinary cars.
Do expensive speakers use titanium alloy? How can they be so much more expensive than ordinary speakers and yet perform worse?
A car has to be superior in all aspects to justify its high price.

Many people say that speakers are now luxury items. Forget it... Expensive speakers are ridiculously large. You can't carry them around with you. They have no value as luxury items. Luxury cars, watches, and leather bags can be taken out at any time to show off. That's the value of luxury items.

Ultimately, I think the current hi-end speaker industry is just a load of bullshit. It's not just about excessive profits; it's outright fraud.

 

[Curvature]

You know what else is fraud? Mass-produced cheap junk by the commercial giants. There's more than one way to waste time, resources and effort.

 

[ShadowFiend]

Here, speakers have become a luxury item.
They often cost several thousand or even tens of thousands of US dollars. Keep in mind that a car doesn't cost much more than that. But speakers are just a few speakers and some wood. The technological content in them can never exceed that of a car. Even more absurdly, these speakers seem to have strayed from their purpose.

Speakers are about science; they should accurately reproduce sound. Many people would find it hard to understand what's so special about speakers that cost tens of thousands of dollars. Don't compare them to luxury cars. Expensive cars have powerful engines, with multiple cylinders and carbon fiber, and luxurious interiors, which are significantly different from ordinary cars.
Do expensive speakers use titanium alloy? How can they be so much more expensive than ordinary speakers and yet perform worse?
A car has to be superior in all aspects to justify its high price.

Many people say that speakers are now luxury items. Forget it... Expensive speakers are ridiculously large. You can't carry them around with you. They have no value as luxury items. Luxury cars, watches, and leather bags can be taken out at any time to show off. That's the value of luxury items.

Ultimately, I think the current hi-end speaker industry is just a load of bullshit. It's not just about excessive profits; it's outright fraud.

No, it is not fraud if you put in the perspective. One important thing is the score is for anechoic condition. It does not count the important factor which is the surface area of the room the distance from speaker to listener. If you ever hear the small bookself speaker in big room, you will know. The big bold 3,4-way high end speakers from Wilson, Magico, Martens, Rockport,.. will sound better than small speaker in big room because of lower distortion in high volume, better bass quantity and inert cabinet. And if you can afford those speakers, then you will have the estate for them to shine. Not too mention their finish quality is great and luxurious. Of course, there are real frauds like AudioNote' speakers, but calling all other high end speakers as fraud is too one-sided for me

 

[Arindal]

Here, speakers have become a luxury item.

I agree that high end speaker are surely premium products simply by the prices asked for them, but I do not see a connection with luxury in the sense of having no purpose like enjoying music on them.

Speakers are about science; they should accurately reproduce sound. Many people would find it hard to understand what's so special about speakers that cost tens of thousands of dollars.

I agree to the general statement about science. But in practice, there are lots of different opinions what ´accurately reproducing´ exactly means, there are different rooms, different setups, different music genres, different listeners. A speaker is not a pocket calculator getting the calculation either wrong or right. It is not that simple. A complicated room in terms of room acoustics, listener´s expectation regarding higher achievable SPL or the desire to reproduce acoustic recordings with natural imaging/ambience accurately, might require a much better performance of the speaker driving development costs up.

Nothing wrong in that, even if it comes at a premium price, and even if people who are anyways investing more than 10 Grand, are willing to spend a few bucks more on a nice finish and rigid cabinet.

Do expensive speakers use titanium alloy?

Some are milled from solid aluminium. Is this justifying a price north of 100 Grand in your eyes?

A car has to be superior in all aspects to justify its high price.

I had exactly the opposite impression after a recent ride with a $200,000 luxury sportscar. Except for really impressive acceleration, I would say everything else that defines quality in my understanding, was inferior to a premium sub-$100k mass-market car, from fake leather, wind noise to nervous, stiff suspension.

People buy things like cars out of fascination for a brand or certain aspects. It is not a rational decision in most of cases. So why should this be different with speakers?

They have no value as luxury items.

Sounds slightly like a contradiction to your previous statement about luxury. But I agree that high end audio has no value as a luxury good to show off. People primarily buy it for their personal enjoyment. And they usually do extended listening sessions prior to buying expensive equipment, but seemingly buy stuff which does not get lots of blessing from self-proclaimed objectivistic reviewers or here on ASR.

To be honest, I do not think the premium-price-is-fraud discussion and how poor some expensive speakers perform, is anyhow useful. People who like those, would buy them regardless, because they do not trust measurements, ratings or objectivistic reviews, but their ears at a listening test.

The only ones who are suffering from this discussion as they are labelled ´fraud´, potentially lose customer´s trust, are the manufacturers of expensive equipment relying fully on science, measurements and objectivistic approach. Why should anyone buy a Kii, D&D, MEG or expensive Genelec, if you can have the same response and rating for a fraction of the price? I find this pretty sad, because these are the companies who really invest into R&D, and I find it justified to pay a premium just for their innovative approach and their attempt to solve existing problems like with room acoustics.

 

[a4eaudio]

...They often cost several thousand or even tens of thousands of US dollars. Keep in mind that a car doesn't cost much more than that. But speakers are just a few speakers and some wood. The technological content in them can never exceed that of a car. ...

The technological content in a 5 caret diamond is even less than that of a speaker or car. Technological content is not the determinant of price.

 

[jayapple]

No, it is not fraud if you put in the perspective. One important thing is the score is for anechoic condition. It does not count the important factor which is the surface area of the room the distance from speaker to listener. If you ever hear the small bookself speaker in big room, you will know. The big bold 3,4-way high end speakers from Wilson, Magico, Martens, Rockport,.. will sound better than small speaker in big room because of lower distortion in high volume, better bass quantity and inert cabinet. And if you can afford those speakers, then you will have the estate for them to shine. Not too mention their finish quality is great and luxurious. Of course, there are real frauds like AudioNote' speakers, but calling all other high end speakers as fraud is too one-sided for me

In fact, I have seen and heard these huge speakers at many exhibitions, and their sound field is extremely vast, a feeling that Hi-Fi speakers simply cannot achieve.

The price is also prohibitive; they cost several million RMB, which is equivalent to hundreds of thousands of US dollars, enough to buy a house. The target audience for such products is no longer ordinary people but top capitalists.
Such products are far beyond the budget of almost everyone. This type of product is beyond measurement.

 

[Curvature]

This type of product is beyond measurement.

Not entirely. But they jealously hide the results.

 

[JSmith]

I think it's important to understand that the preference score isn't an absolute measure of audio quality. If you want to objectively view the ratings, you need to understand the full spinorama and the reason behind why the preference score ended up as it did.

Yep...

The preference score was an academic exercise to test an hypothesis - namely that there was a correlation between spinorama data and double-blind listener evaluations. It served its purpose, but in real life I know of nobody in Harman who uses it - including me - we use two eyes and a brain to examine the family of curves and arrive at conclusions that embrace trade-offs. For example, simple bass extension - a limited bass extension can result in a lower calculated score, but in the real world a properly integrated subwoofer system can elevate it to an even higher level. A single significant resonance or a spectral tilt can be equalized to attenuate its audibility, but many resonances would present a serious problem, yet both could yield similar scores. And so on. Look at the curves, learn to interpret them, forget about the all-embracing "score".

You shouldn't focus on preference scores. It was only intended to help naive people interpret spinorama measurements and reduce it to a single number.

Buy a loudspeaker based on its spinoroma measurements and how loud it can play without distortion for your application. Look for flat, smooth on-axis well maintained off-axis and smooth directivity. If it has smooth directivity then you can equalize it to improve the on-axis and off-axis response.

JSmith

 

[Curvature]

Think of it like this: every reviewer uses at least a binary, 1 or 0 rating scale: recommended, not recommended. They make things spicy by introducing superlatives and criticisms, which increases the range of outcomes: highly recommended, lukewarmly recommended, etc. This is regardless of the reviews including measurements, technical expertise or not.

The preference score allows for a consistent method for calculating a wide range of ratings. It can be examined deeply for attribution (how much ear underlying component contributed) if you have the mathematical chops.

There have been many discussions why the preference score does not take everything into account. Sean Olive gave a comprehensive list in one of his recent presentations. But it's still a good tool.