High volume incident, looking for reason/s

[tonapo]

Hi there,

I have not called this a "Max volume" incident, but it felt it at the time as it frightened the life out of me! I think, in retrospect, it was only high volume, or jump in volume rather than max. The kit seems OK, but I don't want this happening again, so I am keen to understand why.

A bit of background - I was enjoying a few tunes yesterday as it was friday night, not too loud, my pre amp was at -17db at the time, I know as I had just set the volume. The music was already playing when there was a large jump in volume and the music became distorted as well, liking playing through a barely tuned radio station. I leaped at the kit and shut the power-amp down. The volume was high but not ear-shredding in retrospect.

To undersand the reason why this happened, I have made a list of the kit connected at the time, its longer than I thought, but wanted to be thorough.

• CD Transport - Cambridge Audio CXC - connected but not in use, on standby.
• DAC - Topping D90 in DAC mode and XLR, bluetooth off.
• Music software - Roon
  • streaming Qobuz content at the time, 48khz, 24 bit (so presumably playing at 768khz - see sample rate conversion below)
  • Headroom adjust -6db
  • Convolution - using covolution files (been in use for 12 months +)
  • Sample rate conversion - using Roon Music - Max PCM (power of 2)
• Power amp - NAD M23
• Pre-amp - Topping Pre90 connected via XLR
• Remote - Logitech Harmony companion remote with hub - 4.15.330 hub software. No other activities programmed or in use.
• Speakers - KEF Reference 1
• Streamer - Raspberry pi 4 4gb model running RoPieeeXL 2023.07.1 (1069). Connected via ethernet
• UPS - Cyberpower CP900EPFCLCD - we get power cuts from time to time!

Also worth mentioning, I think something similar happened previously, but 18 months ago or so. I was using a different amplifier, an integrated Musical Fidelity M6si. At a guess, I think the DAC, music software (probably upsampling to DSD 256 at the time), speakers and streamer are the only common items. On the last occasion the volume felt higher, and I was able to leap at the amp to turn the volume down. Same main symptom though, very loud and distorted all of a sudden.

One of the main reasons for getting the pre-amp when I started using the NAD M23 power-amp was to stop this sort of thing being possible. However, once I thought about it for a while, I do wonder if it did do its job afterall and it stopped very high volume or max volume being activated, which would have put the speakers and my hearing, very much at risk.

So, what can I do? A few thoughts

• DAC/Pre-amp firmware - I am not sure about about the firmware on the DAC or the Pre-amp, is this worth checking? I have done a quick review (internet and on the units), but could not see what they were currently on, or how to check, does anyone know? I can see windows driver updates, but still looking for non-mqa firmware.
• sample rate conversion - I have turned this off for now.
• Reduce variables - I could pull some of the kit, perhaps the remote, disconnect the CD transport, remove the UPS?
• Swap kit out (although conscious this is adding variables)- I could swap out some kit, the DAC for instance, for my RME ADI-2 I use on my desk, but as this problem seems very rare, I am not sure whether I would see an effect in the short/medium term.

Any other thoughts or suggestions appreciated.

Thanks for reading.

 

[Sokel]

Since DAC is in DAC mode it's output is at 100%,no worries there.
I guess you do VC in preamp,right?And as far as I know it's analog,so little chance there too.
Is there anywhere else you do VC?

 

[tonapo]

Since DAC is in DAC mode it's output is at 100%,no worries there.
I guess you do VC in preamp,right?And as far as I know it's analog,so little chance there too.
Is there anywhere else you do VC?

There is -6db in headroom management in Roon, as I use convolution filters (provided by HomeAudioFidelity - used for 2+ years). And then, yes, volume control via the pre-amp, and nowhere else.

 

[Sokel]

6db is enough to make you jump depending the SPL you already play.
Is there any .log reporting operation,issues,etc for Roon?

 

[Apesbrain]

About the Pre90 according to Stereophile:

"It increments gain in 0.5dB steps via relays that switch among resistor arrays."

I'm not sure that can be relied upon like an analog pot or stepped resistor. Also, I've had the occasional issue when using convolver files; typically this manifests as a frequency response aberration, though, not volume.

 

[tonapo]

Is there any .log reporting operation,issues,etc for Roon?

OK, found the log and I need to look through. Nothing obvious but I am now taking a bit more time.

About the Pre90 according to Stereophile:

"It increments gain in 0.5dB steps via relays that switch among resistor arrays."

I'm not sure that can be relied upon like an analog pot or stepped resistor.

Thanks - although does not give me much confidence!

 

[BR52]

About the Pre90 according to Stereophile:

"It increments gain in 0.5dB steps via relays that switch among resistor arrays."

I'm not sure that can be relied upon like an analog pot or stepped resistor. Also, I've had the occasional issue when using convolver files; typically this manifests as a frequency response aberration, though, not volume.

As I know the steps are steered by firmware….

 

[tonapo]

As I know the steps are steered by firmware….

So its probably worth working out the firmware for both the DAC and pre.

 

[tonapo]

I have the log time narrowed done (ish), but I don't really know what I am looking for, there is nothing obvious. I have started a thread on the Roon forums to see if they can help. And I have emailed topping for advice too.

 

[nagster]

I thought about it simply.
Since the amp was replaced and the same failure occurred, the amp is ruled out as a suspect.
The DAC is already at max volume because it is in DAC mode.
The remaining suspects
OS, music software, streamer, remote controller.

 

[tonapo]

I thought about it simply.
Since the amp was replaced and the same failure occurred, the amp is ruled out as a suspect.
The DAC is already at max volume because it is in DAC mode.
The remaining suspects
OS, music software, streamer, remote controller.

Agreed, my thinking is similar.

probably the cause

• Amp - not present previously
• UPS - not present previously
• pre90 - not present previously, although still checking with topping
• remote control - not present previously.

To investigate further

• OS/music software - Roon - looking at logs and Roon for help.
• Streamer - RPI4 with ropieee - possible, it is also set to output at 100%. I do using the same combination rpi4 and ropieee in two other locations and no similar issue.
• DAC - Topping D90 - checking with topping (I have included the pre90 in the comms with topping)

 

[JeffS7444]

What's the security situation of your Roon PC and Rpi setup: Are they wide-open, allowing ad-hoc wireless connections and the like? I experienced an annoying situation with my "smart" TV: It's equipped with Bluetooth, with no obvious way to switch it off, and it broadcasts it's presence to the world. And every so often, I'd see a popup message that someone wanted to connect their device to my set. Assuming that it was not malicious intent so much as confusion due to generic device name, I renamed the set "Not your device" and haven't seen a connection request since!

 

[tonapo]

What's the security situation of your Roon PC and Rpi setup: Are they wide-open, allowing ad-hoc wireless connections and the like? I experienced an annoying situation with my "smart" TV: It's equipped with Bluetooth, with no obvious way to switch it off, and it broadcasts it's presence to the world. And every so often, I'd see a popup message that someone wanted to connect their device to my set. Assuming that it was not malicious intent so much as confusion due to generic device name, I renamed the set "Not your device" and haven't seen a connection request since!

In terms of the Roon NUC, its in a fanless akassa case (the Newton WS I think), and has no wifi antenna or bluetooth antennas, although I can't expressly turn wifi or Bluetooth off via Roon. I also can't 'see' the NUC with my phone or pc via wifi or bluetooth. It is however sat in the rack, next to the DAC and preamp.

As for the Streamer, I have just checked in ropieee, wireless is not enabled. All other possible services, UPnP, DLNA, Airplay, Spotify, squeezelite, HQPlayer, Plexamp are not enabled. Physically the rpi is sat down next to the amp, connected via ethernet, and then by USB to the DAC. Its in no-name metal case from Amazon.

 

[JayGilb]

I'm guessing that it is not the preamp, because an increase in volume should not cause that type of distortion, but anything feeding the preamp could overdrive the inputs resulting in high distortion.

Good luck.

 

[pseudoid]

I am not certain I understand your problem fully but something 'similar' occurred when my Rotel Pre/Proc volume started increasing (NOT 'jumped') to its max by itself.
I had found out later that the Logitech Harmony remote control went bonkers [I think] because of low batteries.
Sounds too simplistic but could a R/C be the culprit of your demonic 'High Volume Incident'?

 

[CapMan]

I use Roon with my Devialet Expert and had one incident recently where Roon went full volume and I couldn’t override this with the device volume control.

I ran and killed the power, but sadly damaged one speaker driver.

I suspect something went wrong with the handshake between Roon and the end point and it stayed on fixed volume rather than variable. I have safety limits set to prevent this but they did not get applied.

I posted on Roon forum and got no response from tech support. Very poor. Others there have cited examples of volume going to max.

I am now very careful when I start up that no music is playing until I am sure the volume has been set to variable.

It is always a potential risk when using software based volume controls I guess.

Might be worth putting your issue as a ticket over at Roon.

 

[Zensō]

I use Roon with my Devialet Expert and had one incident recently where Roon went full volume and I couldn’t override this with the device volume control.

I ran and killed the power, but sadly damaged one speaker driver.

I suspect something went wrong with the handshake between Roon and the end point and it stayed on fixed volume rather than variable. I have safety limits set to prevent this but they did not get applied.

I posted on Roon forum and got no response from tech support. Very poor. Others there have cited examples of volume going to max.

I am now very careful when I start up that no music is playing until I am sure the volume has been set to variable.

It is always a potential risk when using software based volume controls I guess.

Might be worth putting your issue as a ticket over at Roon.

I had Roon jump to full volume more than once. This was when using iOS devices as Roon Remotes. This may or may not be related to your issue. Did you say what you were using as a Roon Remote when this happened?

 

[CapMan]

I had Roon jump to full volume more than once. This was when using iOS devices as Roon Remotes. This may or may not be related to your issue. Did you say what you were using as a Roon Remote when this happened?

I was using my iPhone as a controller. The interesting thing is that the safe guards did not apply (max volume). To me it seemed more likely that Roon thought it should send fixed output and the device was expecting variable .

 

[amirm]

A bit of background - I was enjoying a few tunes yesterday as it was friday night, not too loud, my pre amp was at -17db at the time, I know as I had just set the volume. The music was already playing when there was a large jump in volume and the music became distorted as well, liking playing through a barely tuned radio station. I leaped at the kit and shut the power-amp down. The volume was high but not ear-shredding in retrospect.

This reads to me like a software bug in the way the filtering/DSP was implemented. It is trivial for that part of the pipeline to create massive overload/clipping. I have never seen it in Roon but it is possible.

 

[Zensō]

I was using my iPhone as a controller. The interesting thing is that the safe guards did not apply (max volume). To me it seemed more likely that Roon thought it should send fixed output and the device was expecting variable .

I bet this is the problem. I more than once was looking at my iPhone when the volume shot to max. This has only ever happened when using Roon. It's been discussed at length on the Roon support forum. Unfortunately, support has yet to provide a reliable fix.