High Sensitivity Speakers

[MrPeabody]

I will suggest that you withdraw the question and ask people for advice and opinions on whether it is economically wise to shop for speakers that are highly sensitive in order to save money on the cost of the amplifier. To be direct I cannot fathom how this would make sense. Possibly there are other reasons for preferring speakers that are high in sensitivity, but the reason you gave, saving money on the amplifier, just isn't a good justification for preferring speakers that are high in sensitivity.

 

[S. Ghosh]

I will suggest that you withdraw the question and ask people for advice and opinions on whether it is economically wise to shop for speakers that are highly sensitive in order to save money on the cost of the amplifier. To be direct I cannot fathom how this would make sense. Possibly there are other reasons for preferring speakers that are high in sensitivity, but the reason you gave, saving money on the amplifier, just isn't a good justification for preferring speakers that are high in sensitivity.

NEED FULL DYNAMICS IN VERY LOW VOLUME

 

[Helicopter]

I actually think you might be pretty happy with CW4. They are not engineered in the league of Focal Arias, and I would try a Hypex amp or similar with 300+WPC first to see if current delivery.is a problem, even at low volume... that is just me though. My old Heresys are a great electronic match for my SET amp, and you might find something like that with CW4. As bad as H4 was in Erin's review compared to something like Aria, they are still +/-3dB or so, which is better than lots of vintage stuff around here. They are not nearly as accurate, but they are good emough to play around, have fun, and do some listening. You might like the slight brightness too. As I said before, I would keep the Focals and get the CW4. You can always sell either later. I would just plan on keeping both. Maybe you can get a good discount too.

 

[MrPeabody]

NEED FULL DYNAMICS IN VERY LOW VOLUME

I don't follow. (BTW, you might consider investing in a keyboard that does lower case as well as upper case.)


I am hoping that you'll take a step back and take a very different approach, and rather than ask people to help you pick out some speakers that are highly sensitive, you'll write something that will be interesting to read, that makes the case for highly sensitive speakers as a way to save money on an amplifier. You are in effect advocating something that is unorthodox, and you haven't yet really explained the unorthodox view.

 

[Wombat]

Full dynamics at low volume is doable. You just won't know it is happening because the lowest level sounds will be inaudible.

It can be measured, even if not fully heard.

 

[Beershaun]

NEED FULL DYNAMICS IN VERY LOW VOLUME

Can you tell us a little bit more. What is your music listening situation? Do you live in an apartment with thin walls and hard surfaces that makes it important for you to keep your volume levels low? Or others living in your house that don't want to hear your stereo?

 

[tuga]

To get full dynamics at a very low volume .

I'd call that "clarity" or high-resolution at low listening levels.
Don't just look at speakers, the amplifier will also impact performance.

 

[mhardy6647]

ASR Trigger Warning: The "average" (median/mean) / typical ASR member/poster is advised to just skip over this post. Move along. There's nothing to see here. These are not the droids you're looking for.

NEED FULL DYNAMICS IN VERY LOW VOLUME

IF (???) budget and/or available space are constraints, @S. Ghosh -- you might want to consider a single-driver (so-called "fullrange") loudspeaker.
Not sure what would be readily available where you live, but there are myriad options, including purchaing a pair of drivers and building (or having someone build) enclosures for them.

Now -- here's the thing. A "fullrange" driver is a big bucketful of compromises by definition, considering that the nominally "audible" spectrum covers three orders of magnitude of frequencies (20 Hz to 20,000 Hz; i.e., wavelengths of ca. 17 meters to 1.7 cm), but most of them employ no electrical crossover to waste amplifier power, and they can be quite sensitive. A variety of tricks are sometimes used to enhance the perceived performance of these drivers -- e.g., horn, pipe, or transmission line loading for bass enhancement, or parasitic ("whizzer") cones or dual-compliance suspensions (a la the Altec "Biflex") to extend treble response. It is possible to make a "fullrange" driver that is fairly sensitive (even very sensitive, at least by modern standards). The optimum size for a single-driver seems to me (empirically!) to be about 200 mm (8 inches, where I live) but there are many such drivers commercially available that are larger and smaller than that.

These are currently fashionable in some circles:
https://www.lii-audio.com/

Fostex (Foster) has a long-standing position in manufacturing "fullrange" speakers and offers designs and kits to build enclosures for them.
https://www.fostexinternational.com/docs/speaker_components/types_of_drivers.shtml

The classic sine qua non were/are the drivers from an eccentric British company called Lowther. These drivers are interesting and very polarizing in the 'community'. They're very sensitive, though -- and very expensive.
https://lowtherloudspeakers.com/

There are other modern manufacturers/distributors of "fullrange" drivers. In the US, Madisound and Parts Express are good sources. Parts Express has some unique offerings sold under their "Dayton Audio" brand, as well as some interesting (and not inexpensive) TangBand drivers.
PE's fullrange driver offerings are mixed into the offerings in this filtered view from PE's website: https://www.parts-express.com/speak.../midrange-midbass-drivers-full-range-speakers

There are other current production options for both drivers and fully-finished loudspeakers (drivers and cabinets) -- some include various kinds of "passive" networks to improve their performance (at the expense of some sensitivity and dynamics, for better or worse). Here is one (US) example -- also, again, quite polarizing to "audiophiles"
https://omegaloudspeakers.com/

There are also many "vintage" options from companies storied (Altec, JBL, Electrovoice, Jensen, e.g.) and less fondly remembered (Utah, University, Oaktron, e.g.) Even the fabled retailer "Radio Shack" sold some interesting "fullrange" drivers over they years.

Are these drivers/speakers ideal? Far from it. Can they deliver good dynamics? Yes (in some cases). Are they "colored" (i.e., do they exhibit substantial deviations from flat frequency response)? Yes, almost without exception (and without regard to price!). Do they suffer from other woes not typically found in "normal" loudspeakers? Yes (e.g., Doppler distortion and rising impedance at higher frequencies being among the most typical). Can they sound "good"? Yes (subjectively). They're absolutely, irrevocably not for everybody. In other words, you'll want to try before you buy.

HTH ("hope this helps"), as they say.

EDIT: Here are two subforums at other hifi websites that might be of interest/value for you to peruse, @S. Ghosh
https://hifihaven.org/index.php?forums/high-efficiency.21/
https://www.audioasylum.com/forums/hug/bbs.html

These might be of interest, too:
https://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?forums/the-lansing-legacy.212/
https://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?forums/the-klipsch-korner.131/
https://community.klipsch.com/
http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/
https://www.hostboard.com/forums/f700/index13.html (moribund, but still some good information scattered through it)

 

[tuga]

ASR Trigger Warning: The "average" (median/mean) / typical ASR member/poster is advised to just skip over this post. Move along. There's nothing to see here. These are not the droids you're looking for.


IF (???) budget and/or available space are constraints, @S. Ghosh -- you might want to consider a single-driver (so-called "fullrange") loudspeaker.
Not sure what would be readily available where you live, but there are myriad options, including purchaing a pair of drivers and building (or having someone build) enclosures for them.

Now -- here's the thing. A "fullrange" driver is a big bucketful of compromises by definition, considering that the nominally "audible" spectrum covers three orders of magnitude of frequencies (20 Hz to 20,000 Hz; i.e., wavelengths of ca. 17 meters to 1.7 cm), but most of them employ no electrical crossover to waste amplifier power, and they can be quite sensitive. A variety of tricks are sometimes used to enhance the perceived performance of these drivers -- e.g., horn, pipe, or transmission line loading for bass enhancement, or parasitic ("whizzer") cones or dual-compliance suspensions (a la the Altec "Biflex") to extend treble response. It is possible to make a "fullrange" driver that is fairly sensitive (even very sensitive, at least by modern standards). The optimum size for a single-driver seems to me (empirically!) to be about 200 mm (8 inches, where I live) but there are many such drivers commercially available that are larger and smaller than that.

These are currently fashionable in some circles:
https://www.lii-audio.com/

Fostex (Foster) has a long-standing position in manufacturing "fullrange" speakers and offers designs and kits to build enclosures for them.
https://www.fostexinternational.com/docs/speaker_components/types_of_drivers.shtml

The classic sine qua non were/are the drivers from an eccentric British company called Lowther. These drivers are interesting and very polarizing in the 'community'. They're very sensitive, though -- and very expensive.
https://lowtherloudspeakers.com/

There are other modern manufacturers/distributors of "fullrange" drivers. In the US, Madisound and Parts Express are good sources. Parts Express has some unique offerings sold under their "Dayton Audio" brand, as well as some interesting (and not inexpensive) TangBand drivers.
PE's fullrange driver offerings are mixed into the offerings in this filtered view from PE's website: https://www.parts-express.com/speak.../midrange-midbass-drivers-full-range-speakers

There are other current production options for both drivers and fully-finished loudspeakers (drivers and cabinets) -- some include various kinds of "passive" networks to improve their performance (at the expense of some sensitivity and dynamics, for better or worse). Here is one (US) example -- also, again, quite polarizing to "audiophiles"
https://omegaloudspeakers.com/

There are also many "vintage" options from companies storied (Altec, JBL, Electrovoice, Jensen, e.g.) and less fondly remembered (Utah, University, Oaktron, e.g.) Even the fabled retailer "Radio Shack" sold some interesting "fullrange" drivers over they years.

Are these drivers/speakers ideal? Far from it. Can they deliver good dynamics? Yes (in some cases). Are they "colored" (i.e., do they exhibit substantial deviations from flat frequency response)? Yes, almost without exception (and without regard to price!). Do they suffer from other woes not typically found in "normal" loudspeakers? Yes (e.g., Doppler distortion and rising impedance at higher frequencies being among the most typical). Can they sound "good"? Yes (subjectively). They're absolutely, irrevocably not for everybody. In other words, you'll want to try before you buy.

HTH ("hope this helps"), as they say.

EDIT: Here are two subforums at other hifi websites that might be of interest/value for you to peruse, @S. Ghosh
https://hifihaven.org/index.php?forums/high-efficiency.21/
https://www.audioasylum.com/forums/hug/bbs.html

These might be of interest, too:
https://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?forums/the-lansing-legacy.212/
https://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?forums/the-klipsch-korner.131/
https://community.klipsch.com/
http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/
https://www.hostboard.com/forums/f700/index13.html (moribund, but still some good information scattered through it)

I would never recomend a single-driver speaker.

And why would you expect one to have better performance at low listenig levels than a 2- or 3-way design?
For one they tend to have the wrong tonal balance tilt and they struggle with complex material (intermodulation)...

 

[mixsit]

It has been ages since actually having looked into this, but my understanding is program reproduced dynamic range and driver/system sensitivity were unrelated.

 

[mhardy6647]

I would never recomend a single-driver speaker.

And why would expect one to have better performance at low listenig levels than a 2- or 3-way design?
For one they tend to have the wrong tonal balance tilt and they struggle with complex material (intermodulation)...

you were warned.

 

[tuga]

you were warned.

Sorry I missed your warning. It was the purple, it threw me off...

 

[Helicopter]

I am with Mark here. I am thinking the OP might be happier, probably nor blind A/B but real life sighted, with something that trades excellent frequency response for more sensitivity, like CW4, other horns, fullrange, etc.

Another thing, 948s are big and draw a lot of current. I think this might be the real problem and more power or higher minimum impedance might help more than sensitivity.

Cornwall IV, have minimum impedance a little over 4 ohm with high sensitivity. Focal 806 and 906 are in the same impedamce range. These all might match that Accuphase better.

 

[More Dynamics Please]

Full dynamics at low volume is doable. You just won't know it is happening because the lowest level sounds will be inaudible.

It can be measured, even if not fully heard.

From my experience the loss of perceived dynamics at lower volume is primarily related to inadequate bass and science helps explain why. The Fletcher-Munson loudness curves show how our ears are less sensitive to low frequencies at low volumes. Proper equalization can increase our perception of full dynamics at lower volumes with any speaker. I always run my sub a little hotter when listening to music at low volume levels and the little gut punches from the lowest notes create the perception of increased dynamics.

 

[escape2]

NEED FULL DYNAMICS IN VERY LOW VOLUME

How does high speaker sensitivity help achieve full dynamics at very low volume? I am not following.

 

[TheInquiring]

May I respectfully suggest the F1-12’s from Fyne Audio for the OP’s consideration? Would you, dear experts, kindly comment on their measurement results, please?

Any open-baffle designs from Spatial worth consideration? No published measurement results found anywhere, unfortunately…

 

[ahofer]

WANT TO KNOW THE TRUE SOUND QUALITY ABOUT OMEGA & KLIPSCH
SPEAKERS WHICH ARE OF HIGH SENSITIVITY .

Is the all caps thing because we are all so low sensitivity?

 

[Helicopter]

May I respectfully suggest the F1-12’s from Fyne Audio for the OP’s consideration? Would you, dear experts, kindly comment on their measurement results, please?

Any open-baffle designs from Spatial worth consideration? No published measurement results found anywhere, unfortunately…

It doesn't look horrible to me, but I like vintage speakers, horns, etc. FR looks warm sounding with a little boost above 100kHz in mid bass and declining in highs. It is a little jaggy so it won't be super realistic sounding, but it should be pleasant, especially fairly close where room response will be less pronounced. I bet I would like the sound OK, but I would not trade my Focal Aria 948 for them. The cabinets are really pretty.

 

[thewas]

Please be aware that the loudspeaker measurements of https://www.hifi-voice.com/ are in room without windowing, so have only limited informative value.

 

[Zedly]

From my experience the loss of perceived dynamics at lower volume is primarily related to inadequate bass and science helps explain why. The Fletcher-Munson loudness curves show how our ears are less sensitive to low frequencies at low volumes. Proper equalization can increase our perception of full dynamics at lower volumes with any speaker. I always run my sub a little hotter when listening to music at low volume levels and the little gut punches from the lowest notes create the perception of increased dynamics.

I like Audyssey's Dynamic EQ because it does exactly this. My wife and daughter like listening at lower levels than I do, so I have to turn the volume down when we listen/watch together. Dynamic EQ boosts the lows when you turn down the volume, so we still get good bass.