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Here's my space. What do you think of my (unusual?) ideas?

Joe BKNY

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I'm a beginner, and I've read enough to know that a good place to start is with the room. At the bottom of the post I've attached a floor plan and pictures.
I welcome any and all thoughts and perspectives.

I live in a row house. The semi-open first floor is roughly 10' x 34', divided in half into a roughly equal sized living room and a kitchen/dining area. The two areas are joined by a 6' wide opening - in other words, the two areas are separated by two 2' wide short walls that flank the opening.
From the point of view of how I live and will listen, I will only be in one side or the other at a time. In other words, it isn't necessary to attempt to provide quality sound to the entire space simultaneously.
I have a budget, but it is finite. I hope to limit the cost of speakers to $1000 to $3000.

One obvious solution is to position speakers on the dividing walls (see pictures and floor plan). Instead of buying four speakers (two per listening area) here's a radical plan: use just two speakers, positioned on or in the dividing walls, with the ability to be swiveled towards one side or the other. I would listen in the kitchen area, or the living room area, but not both simultaneously. And that way I could spend twice as much per speaker! Depending on how exactly this plan was executed, the two mini-walls might function as 2' x 7' baffles. Of course, there would likely end up being a gap between the speaker and the wall.
Of course, I want to hear your thoughts on where to place speakers.

There is an additional mini-dividing wall (marked "G" on the plan) that should probably be removed to open up a pathway for sound.

My approach to listening will be different in the two different living areas. In the kitchen, I will while moving around. On the plan, the kitchen listening area is marked "A". In the living room, I will be sitting, either on the couch which is along the wall away from the middle of the room, or even in a chair (temporarily) positioned in the "sweet spot" for best/critical listening. On the plan those areas are marked "B" and "C".

I throw the floor open to suggestions about what speakers (or type of speaker) I should use. To get the ball rolling (and given all of the above) here's a specific idea:
what do you think of the GGNTKT Model S1 It's made for in- or on-wall installation, and I'm attracted by their claim that it provides a much wider and more consistent listening field than a conventional speaker, which I thought might be helpful given the fact that I'll be moving around when listening!

Floor Plan.jpegFrom Kitchen into Liv. Rm_.jpgFrom Liv. Rm. into Kitchen_.jpg

ps. I plan to post these questions elsewhere - at least on the DIY forum. I don't know if that's considered a violation of some kind....
 

maverickronin

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This is my kind of crazy. Those speakers aren't the best choice though.

They are essentially just satellite speakers so they need a very high crossover to a subwoofer. So high in fact, you'll probably need two subs and have to move them to the other side of the wall with the improvised mains to avoid localization problems. Plus the subs need to be capable of playing that high too. Something like a pair of Rythmik FM8 would probably work well acoustically, but wouldn't be the most convenient to move around.

Personally I think it might be best to find some TV wall mounts with really long extension and then just attach normal sized bookshelf/standmount speakers to them. Then you can cross the subs low enough it won't matter what side of the wall they are on.
 

Inner Space

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Swiveling is an ingenious idea, but your L & R will be reversed in one room or the other. You OK with that?
 

JRS

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Interesting challenge, and wondered about skinny monitors butted up against the stubby walls as well. But I doubt I could resist doing something inside those walls--the strangest imagining (and imaging as well?) would be dipoles with cut-outs on both sides. But an unobtrusive in wall opportunity like that would be hard to pass up--how deep and exactly where does the interior vent to?
 

Flaesh

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Interesting challenge and good color room.
what do you think of the GGNTKT Model S1
Very wide directivity, so a lot of early reflected energy from ipsilateral wall if normally installed. What will Roland @roland{at}GGNTKT say?

This room is reminiscent of Beveridge. His speakers can be googled for inspiration))

Have you a pair of any speakers now? Have you a mic?
 

Hipper

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My approach would be to look at them as separate rooms. The living room requires the best sound so buy the best speakers you can afford. The kitchen requires more background listening so just buy 'OK' book shelf speakers and mount them on the wall or movable brackets. Use suitable cabling and switching devices to feed the speakers from the same source. Have the gear positioned wherever you can but try and keep the living room speaker cables a sensible length.

For speaker locations, for the living room it may be that on the window wall would be best with your sofa positioned at around 'B' on your plan. Use 'The Thirds' positioning perhaps. This gives you the advantage of practically no back wall for reflections. The disadvantage may be practicality. Whatever arrangement you choose, to get the best sound you will need to address room issues, notably bass, and I would think the most practical way to do that would be DSP (computer software or a separate box), and/or subwoofer(s).

For the kitchen you could place the speakers anywhere practical. With you moving about the sound will change at different positions so it's not possible to get the perfect sound everywhere. DSP will still be useful here though. You could have different DSP presets for each room.

Of course you may find that with living room speakers facing down the room from the window wall, with increased volume (if neighbours can tolerate it), you could push enough sound into the kitchen for decent listening.

There are systems designed for multi room use, such as Sonos.
 

Hipper

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Swiveling is an ingenious idea, but your L & R will be reversed in one room or the other. You OK with that?
Perhaps there are switching devices that could deal with that?
 

youngho

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Unless you plan to sit in the middle of your kitchen to listen to music, I'd just use speakers like https://www.ikea.com/us/en/p/symfonisk-picture-frame-with-wi-fi-speaker-white-50487329/ (https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...symfonisk-picture-frame-speaker-review.25139/) for the kitchen. Since kitchen listening is likely to be a background activity, I wouldn't stress too much about L/R reversal, certainly not about knocking out part of a wall.

If you're wedded to the pivoting idea, you could consider a ceiling pole mount, e.g. https://www.genelec.com/accessories/8000-444b/w-long-adjustable-ceiling-mount (but it only seems to pivot over a 90 degree arc, so the sweet spots would likely be too close), to mount to the lintel as far apart as possible. You'll likely get some bass reinforcement from the sides, but not as much as a typical on-wall installation, so having the ability to easily adjust the bass tilt, like Genelec monitors have, would be a nice feature.

Young-Ho
 

roland{at}GGNTKT

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Very wide directivity, so a lot of early reflected energy from ipsilateral wall if normally installed. What will Roland @roland{at}GGNTKT say?

Right, Model S1 has full 180° coverage in the horizontal plane.

But because of the strong vertical steering you always need to have the tweeter on ear height. It looks to me, that the mounting you discussed, is very hight. This will only work when you stand up, but as soon as you sit, the heights will collapse. So you the, you really need to have a fixed and defined ear height.
 
OP
J

Joe BKNY

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This is my kind of crazy. Those speakers aren't the best choice though.

They are essentially just satellite speakers so they need a very high crossover to a subwoofer. So high in fact, you'll probably need two subs and have to move them to the other side of the wall with the improvised mains to avoid localization problems. Plus the subs need to be capable of playing that high too. Something like a pair of Rythmik FM8 would probably work well acoustically, but wouldn't be the most convenient to move around.

Personally I think it might be best to find some TV wall mounts with really long extension and then just attach normal sized bookshelf/standmount speakers to them. Then you can cross the subs low enough it won't matter what side of the wall they are on.
Thank you maverickronin ! Especially for your feedback on the speaker - you succeeded in cooling off my uninformed interest in them. I now get that the crossover and sub issues would be significant.
 
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Joe BKNY

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Swiveling is an ingenious idea, but your L & R will be reversed in one room or the other. You OK with that?
Thank you Inner Space - your point hit me like a Homer Simpson d'oh! moment. Hadn't thought of that. Actually don't think it would bother me, but still, good point!
 
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Joe BKNY

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My approach would be to look at them as separate rooms. The living room requires the best sound so buy the best speakers you can afford. The kitchen requires more background listening so just buy 'OK' book shelf speakers and mount them on the wall or movable brackets. Use suitable cabling and switching devices to feed the speakers from the same source. Have the gear positioned wherever you can but try and keep the living room speaker cables a sensible length.

For speaker locations, for the living room it may be that on the window wall would be best with your sofa positioned at around 'B' on your plan. Use 'The Thirds' positioning perhaps. This gives you the advantage of practically no back wall for reflections. The disadvantage may be practicality. Whatever arrangement you choose, to get the best sound you will need to address room issues, notably bass, and I would think the most practical way to do that would be DSP (computer software or a separate box), and/or subwoofer(s).

For the kitchen you could place the speakers anywhere practical. With you moving about the sound will change at different positions so it's not possible to get the perfect sound everywhere. DSP will still be useful here though. You could have different DSP presets for each room.

Of course you may find that with living room speakers facing down the room from the window wall, with increased volume (if neighbours can tolerate it), you could push enough sound into the kitchen for decent listening.

There are systems designed for multi room use, such as Sonos.
Thank you Hipper. Reading your post, I found myself feeling that my ideas fit the old expression: "too clever for his own good". Not the first time I've been guilty of overthinking something. Your emphasis on DSP sounds exactly right, and in keeping with the ASR philosophy. Do you have any feeling about using overhead speakers in the kitchen, given that I'll be moving around?
 

roland{at}GGNTKT

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They are essentially just satellite speakers so they need a very high crossover to a subwoofer. So high in fact, you'll probably need two subs and have to move them to the other side of the wall with the improvised mains to avoid localization problems. Plus the subs need to be capable of playing that high too. Something like a pair of Rythmik FM8 would probably work well acoustically, but wouldn't be the most convenient to move around.
Yes, they Model S1 is not a full range system as it's meant to be crossed @120Hz. However we have a bass extension, that has the same shallow design (<4-inch/ <100mm), that gives you a full range 3-way system.

Some pics from the lab:
image002.jpg

image003.png


...and a video while playing @100 db: https://www.dropbox.com/s/ym1793vrrokt3m1/IMG_8414.MOV?dl=0
 

maverickronin

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Yes, they Model S1 is not a full range system as it's meant to be crossed @120Hz. However we have a bass extension, that has the same shallow design (<4-inch/ <100mm), that gives you a full range 3-way system.

Cool. Maybe I should have looked around on your site more. That combination will definitely work with @Joe BKNY's original idea.
 
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Joe BKNY

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Yes, they Model S1 is not a full range system as it's meant to be crossed @120Hz. However we have a bass extension, that has the same shallow design (<4-inch/ <100mm), that gives you a full range 3-way system.

Some pics from the lab:
View attachment 162170
View attachment 162173

...and a video while playing @100 db: https://www.dropbox.com/s/ym1793vrrokt3m1/IMG_8414.MOV?dl=0
Thank you Roland{at}GGNTKT for this helpful information. I'm interested! I looked at your company's webpage, and the page for Model S1 seemed to be only available in German. Did I miss something? Is the bass extension unit also on the website in English? Do you know if any of your company's products will be displayed at the NY Audio Show on Friday and Saturday 2021.12.3 and 12.4?
Can you comment on the effect of the wide horizontal dispersion of Model S1 on stereo imaging. I don't mean the "size" of the apparent soundstage illusion. I wonder what you can say about the area within which a listener would experience some version of a stereo image. As you know better than I, some speakers produce the illusion of a very large soundstage, but they create that effect only when the listeners head is be placed within a very small area. How does the Model S1 perform in this regard?
 
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Joe BKNY

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Interesting challenge, and wondered about skinny monitors butted up against the stubby walls as well. But I doubt I could resist doing something inside those walls--the strangest imagining (and imaging as well?) would be dipoles with cut-outs on both sides. But an unobtrusive in wall opportunity like that would be hard to pass up--how deep and exactly where does the interior vent to?
The wall is a standard 2"x4" stud wall, so just under 5" wide. I haven't opened them up but I believe that the interior doesn't vent anywhere - the two wall panels are built enclosed by framing top and bottom.
 
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Joe BKNY

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Unless you plan to sit in the middle of your kitchen to listen to music, I'd just use speakers like https://www.ikea.com/us/en/p/symfonisk-picture-frame-with-wi-fi-speaker-white-50487329/ (https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...symfonisk-picture-frame-speaker-review.25139/) for the kitchen. Since kitchen listening is likely to be a background activity, I wouldn't stress too much about L/R reversal, certainly not about knocking out part of a wall.

If you're wedded to the pivoting idea, you could consider a ceiling pole mount, e.g. https://www.genelec.com/accessories/8000-444b/w-long-adjustable-ceiling-mount (but it only seems to pivot over a 90 degree arc, so the sweet spots would likely be too close), to mount to the lintel as far apart as possible. You'll likely get some bass reinforcement from the sides, but not as much as a typical on-wall installation, so having the ability to easily adjust the bass tilt, like Genelec monitors have, would be a nice feature.

Young-Ho
Thanks Young-Ho. The Ikea speaker idea is a perfect example of why it's helpful to ask the community - I would never have thought of that on my own! It's an intriguing idea. Also very affordable - I might try one out, and even if it didn't work in this room, I'm sure I can find another place that could use some music reinforcement...
 

roland{at}GGNTKT

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Thank you Roland{at}GGNTKT for this helpful information. I'm interested! I looked at your company's webpage, and the page for Model S1 seemed to be only available in German. Did I miss something? Is the bass extension unit also on the website in English? Do you know if any of your company's products will be displayed at the NY Audio Show on Friday and Saturday 2021.12.3 and 12.4?
Can you comment on the effect of the wide horizontal dispersion of Model S1 on stereo imaging. I don't mean the "size" of the apparent soundstage illusion. I wonder what you can say about the area within which a listener would experience some version of a stereo image. As you know better than I, some speakers produce the illusion of a very large soundstage, but they create that effect only when the listeners head is be placed within a very small area. How does the Model S1 perform in this regard?
There should be an English version of the page. But you are right, the bass extension is not up yet, but can already be ordered.
Since we don't have an US representative yet, our speakers won't show up on any US trade fairs.

As for the horizontal directivity: There will be a wide sweet spot and evenly distributed sound pressure level. At the same time, there will be more side reflection which give you more "liveliness" which most listeners prefer, but not everybody. It's something that need to be experienced.
 
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