Help Choosing Between Subs

[luft262]

I'm trying to find Subs to go with my Focal Aria 926 tower speakers. I'm currently using two Polk SW10 subs. They paired nicely with my pioneer towers, but now that I've upgraded I need to get better subs, right?

So anyway, I'm trying to decide between SVS and Rythmik. From what I've read it seams the Rythmik subs are probably better, but here is the thing. When I reached out to Rythmik for help selecting a sub for my room they recommend the E22 or L22. Those are 100lbs behemoth subs! I get that my room is fairly large and to pressurize enough air I might need big subs, but 1. I don't like the idea of having to position, move, etc. something so heavy. 2. Even with my current subs I get plenty of rumble and had to put felt on lots of pictures and stuff hanging in the room and they are only 50 watts RMS!. The Rythmik E22 is 800 watts RMS! I'm scared these will bury my speakers and shake my room to death! The SVS SB-2000 is only 550 watts RMS and weighs a more manageable 47 lbs. It costs $900 in glossy black, $1,700 for a pair and has parametric EQ via a phone app. The Rythmik E12 would be a closer comparison. It costs $1,000, has 400 watts RMS and weighs 75 lbs. The SVS just seems like it would be an easier sub to live with given the lower weight and app functions, but if Rythmik is really that good maybe it's worth the trouble? It's interesting to me that the SVS has 150 more watts of power but weighs almost 20lbs less? Not sure what that says about the components going into the SVS.

Any help is appreciated.

Eric

 

[DonH56]

So what are the dimensions of your room, and how much bass do you like?

Disclaimer: I have owned Rythmik subs over 10 years now, Dr. Brian Ding (Rythmik designer/owner) and I have similar day jobs so I am predisposed to like the guy, and I have liked servo subs since I built my own ca. 1980 or so (the servo compensates a number of distortion mechanisms). So I am very biased.

The E22 and L22 are designed to provide greater output using two drivers in a single-driver footprint. Rythmik also provides a very low frequency response, typically 14 Hz -3 dB anechoic, so extra power is required going so low (look up equal loudness curves on Wikipedia or someplace). If you don't need a lot of bass, then by all means go for the smaller models that fit your space. Two will provide a little more output but the biggest benefit is usually smoothing in-room response assuming you can place them to help cancel nulls. I did not want big subs either, room is not that big, so I have four F12's in my modest media room. More output by far than I'll ever need, but the room dimensions are such that four provides much smoother deep bass response.

I have no experience with SVS but they seem to be well-regarded and often recommended so I suspect you'd be fine with them.

Any higher-end sub is likely to play much deeper than your Polks and that requires a lot more power. The loudness curves rise pretty sharply as frequencies drop and note 10 dB increase in SPL requires ten times the power. That means big amps for subs are the rule if you want low distortion. Also note the deeper bass is more something you "feel" than hear; "boom" is often from a combination of peaks in the room response and a midbass boost from the speakers/subs that give the impression of more bass without providing truly deep bass. Many folk comment that they have less bass after a sub upgrade; it takes some time to realize there is more, cleaner bass and it is deeper than before. I personally still like the adage that if you can hear a subwoofer it is too loud or not properly integrated. Subs should be felt not heard.

IME/IMO - Don

 

[Beershaun]

Hi,
I recommend you check you @sweetchaos subwoofer comparison thread and spreadsheet. It gives to a range of options that weigh less than 100lbs. I appreciate your practical need for a subwoofer that is light enough to lift without a mechanical device. I very much like my SVS SB-2000. modern Class D amplifiers are sufficient for subwoofers leading to lower cost and lower size/weight for the same or more power. You still have the woofer size and cabinet size physics problem that you really can't get around though. But efficient lightweight power is a big helper in modern subs.

The Monoprice THX monolith subs seem to score very high on the spreadsheet so I'd check them out. Also I think getting a pair gives you more total SPL so you can go a little smaller for each.

And +1 to the room dimensions to help understand what you need.

 

[Slayer]

I'm trying to find Subs to go with my Focal Aria 926 tower speakers. I'm currently using two Polk SW10 subs. They paired nicely with my pioneer towers, but now that I've upgraded I need to get better subs, right?

So anyway, I'm trying to decide between SVS and Rythmik. From what I've read it seams the Rythmik subs are probably better, but here is the thing. When I reached out to Rythmik for help selecting a sub for my room they recommend the E22 or L22. Those are 100lbs behemoth subs! I get that my room is fairly large and to pressurize enough air I might need big subs, but 1. I don't like the idea of having to position, move, etc. something so heavy. 2. Even with my current subs I get plenty of rumble and had to put felt on lots of pictures and stuff hanging in the room and they are only 50 watts RMS!. The Rythmik E22 is 800 watts RMS! I'm scared these will bury my speakers and shake my room to death! The SVS SB-2000 is only 550 watts RMS and weighs a more manageable 47 lbs. It costs $900 in glossy black, $1,700 for a pair and has parametric EQ via a phone app. The Rythmik E12 would be a closer comparison. It costs $1,000, has 400 watts RMS and weighs 75 lbs. The SVS just seems like it would be an easier sub to live with given the lower weight and app functions, but if Rythmik is really that good maybe it's worth the trouble? It's interesting to me that the SVS has 150 more watts of power but weighs almost 20lbs less? Not sure what that says about the components going into the SVS.

Any help is appreciated.

Eric

Well I definitely think you can and should do better than the Polks you currently have.
I would look into companies ( sub manufactures) like, HSU, PSA, Rythmik, Monolith and I suppose SVS.
Don't worry about them being to big or over powering. If set up correctly, they should blend in with your other speakers. Having the extra headroom is always nice. That rumble- boom you speak of, usually comes with lower end subs, stressing out and not able to reach into the lower subsonic frequencies.
I run 3 subs in my 2 channel music only rig ( one in each corner and one dead center ) and you wouldn't even notice them until called upon. But if I turn them off one by one, all the sudden the main speakers seem so quiet. Subs when set up right really bring out the transient response and tactile feel that gives you the realism of the music that is just difficult to get when only running main speakers.

Take your time and spend a few days researching, you will be happy in the long run.

 

[luft262]

My room is 17 x 25 x 9 feet. I believe that's a volume of 3,835 feet cubed and an area of 425 feet squared. It seams like a large area, but only half of it is the HT area and the back half just has a table and some stuff. There is no back wall, only a step up with a railing that leads to the kitchen with 18 foot ceiling.

I sit about 9 feet from my TV and I probably don't want to change that position much. That means I'm 9.5 feet to each speaker. The speakers are 10 feet apart. 3 feet from back wall to front of speakers, 3.5 feet from side wall to middle of speakers.

The Subs are on either side of the entertainment system (10 feet apart) placed behind the speakers. 18 inches from rear wall to front of subs. 3 inches from rear wall to rear of subs. 3.5 feet from side wall to middle of subs.

Thank you for your input.

 

[Beershaun]

Check out @hardisj review of your polks. He took some measurements so you can see what you have currently in the subwoofer comparison spreadsheet. That will give you a baseline so you can figure out how much better a competing sub would perform.

 

[Bear123]

What matters with speakers is how far you sit from them; room size is almost meaningless. With subs, room size is what matters…..the imaginary line you use to partition your theater has no effect on the subs….only walls. So yes, you have to consider the size of the entire space as defined by walls. IMO, a pair of small sealed subs will only be adequate up to moderate volume levels, although this may be plenty for many.

As far as weight goes, I personally don't think this is a good metric to base a subwoofer purchase on. Did anyone ever say….ugg…I don't want to buy that couch…it weighs 110 lbs. I want to buy the really light 60 lb couch. If anything, most would probably wonder if the light couch was poorly constructed. A heavier sub is a potentially better sub….beefier driver, beefier amp, beefier enclosure. Anyways, a grown man should be able to lift 100 lbs bar some kind of disability. If not, use two people like you would for a couch. Once in place, they can be slid around fairly easy with furniture sliders if moving a 100 lb object is not feasible. If you had to move them several times a day up and down stairs, every day that you own them, I think weight would be a valid concern. Otherwise, maybe not so important?

For placement, I'd try to keep the drivers as close to the walls as possible, possible even turn them sideways firing towards or away from the TV in order to reduce SBIR. Also, symmetric front stage placement often does not yield optimum results, but sometimes it does. If you haven't done so, $75 for a Umik-1 will tell you if you have a big suck out or null in the response.

 

[luft262]

Question about using the Umik-1 microphone to gauge placement and room acoustics. If I use something like that then with the SVS subs I could use the app to alter them with the parametric EQ. With the other subs I'm not sure how I could use that information other than to change the gain or to position them in a different space. Like most family rooms I don't have a lot of leeway where I put the subs anyway, because it is not a dedicated HT or listening room, but a living room. Is there a way to upload EQ from something like the Umik-1 into an AVR like my Onkyo AVR? Otherwise how could I use it to EQ the subs anyway?

Thanks!

 

[hawk01]

to help you put things in perspective, my sealed home theater is 1931cuft. i have dual SVS SB1000s positioned assymetrically and diagonally near the front and rear wall for the most even bass response. while they provide more than adequate bass output for my needs, i would not hesitate to have something that can deliver several notches higher for that headroom. you can never have too much bass coz its easier to dial it down. your space is double of mine so you do the math. am curious your polks can deliver that much in such a large space.

 

[Slayer]

What matters with speakers is how far you sit from them; room size is almost meaningless. With subs, room size is what matters…..the imaginary line you use to partition your theater has no effect on the subs….only walls. So yes, you have to consider the size of the entire space as defined by walls. IMO, a pair of small sealed subs will only be adequate up to moderate volume levels, although this may be plenty for many.

As far as weight goes, I personally don't think this is a good metric to base a subwoofer purchase on. Did anyone ever say….ugg…I don't want to buy that couch…it weighs 110 lbs. I want to buy the really light 60 lb couch. If anything, most would probably wonder if the light couch was poorly constructed. A heavier sub is a potentially better sub….beefier driver, beefier amp, beefier enclosure. Anyways, a grown man should be able to lift 100 lbs bar some kind of disability. If not, use two people like you would for a couch. Once in place, they can be slid around fairly easy with furniture sliders if moving a 100 lb object is not feasible. If you had to move them several times a day up and down stairs, every day that you own them, I think weight would be a valid concern. Otherwise, maybe not so important?

For placement, I'd try to keep the drivers as close to the walls as possible, possible even turn them sideways firing towards or away from the TV in order to reduce SBIR. Also, symmetric front stage placement often does not yield optimum results, but sometimes it does. If you haven't done so, $75 for a Umik-1 will tell you if you have a big suck out or null in the response.

Agree with Bear 100%.
Subwoofer weight can tell you a lot about build quality. Also, No room is identical, what works for placement in one, may not work for the other. While it might take a little trial and error in placement, it will payoff big time in the end. The placement of my subs, is not originally where i thought i would have them. But in the end, experimentation in placement really paid off. The sub crawl method is a good starting point, however it's really nice if you have a couple of sons ( or friends ) you can have moving them around.

 

[DonH56]

Question about using the Umik-1 microphone to gauge placement and room acoustics. If I use something like that then with the SVS subs I could use the app to alter them with the parametric EQ. With the other subs I'm not sure how I could use that information other than to change the gain or to position them in a different space. Like most family rooms I don't have a lot of leeway where I put the subs anyway, because it is not a dedicated HT or listening room, but a living room. Is there a way to upload EQ from something like the Umik-1 into an AVR like my Onkyo AVR? Otherwise how could I use it to EQ the subs anyway?

Thanks!

The usual DSP solution with a UMIK-1 is to use REW to generate the filters and program them into something like a miniDSP unit in-line between AVR and sub(s) -- or AVP and amplifiers.

Rythmik E/F series subwoofers do have a single-band parametric EQ which covers the main room mode for most of us but does not have the flexibility of built-in DSP. That is one way Brian keeps the price down and performance high. They also have continuous phase control so you can use one subwoofer output, split it to the two subs, and adjust the phase to optimize integration. The Rythmik thread on AVS or Enrico or Brian at Rythmik can help with that.

For placement, Todd Welti's paper is a good start: https://www.harman.com/documents/multsubs_0.pdf

 

[luft262]

Check out @hardisj review of your polks. He took some measurements so you can see what you have currently in the subwoofer comparison spreadsheet. That will give you a baseline so you can figure out how much better a competing sub would perform.

Thanks! The comparison spreadsheet helps a lot! Clearly the monolith, rythmik, and SVS all outperform my Polk subs. The SVS are the weakest, which makes sense because they are the lightest. For the same price as the SVS SB 2000 Pro the monolith reach deeper.

I have two follow up questions.

1. For subsonic bass (below 20 Hz). I know we can't hear that and only feel it. I love the way good bass feels, but will all that subsonic bass rattle all the shit in my room? If I crank my current crappy subs I already get some rattle. For me, rattle is annoying and I'd like to get the most bass I can out of my room without the rattle. I guess I'm scared that a larger sub might feel better but cause audible unpleasantness in the form of room rattle.

2. Am I correct in saying that the database is great for seeing how deep a sub will go, but it can't tell you how "tight" or "musical" it sounds? Meaning I'd have to lean on subjective reviews for that. I'm getting the impression that the large and expensive Rythmik, Hsu, and REL subs will give you deep bass and also tight control. The SVS are good for the money and offer convenience in terms of control via the app. The Monolith from Monoprice will get you as low as the more expensive subs, but might not be as controlled?

Thanks for chatting!

 

[luft262]

The usual DSP solution with a UMIK-1 is to use REW to generate the filters and program them into something like a miniDSP unit in-line between AVR and sub(s) -- or AVP and amplifiers.

Rythmik E/F series subwoofers do have a single-band parametric EQ which covers the main room mode for most of us but does not have the flexibility of built-in DSP. That is one way Brian keeps the price down and performance high. They also have continuous phase control so you can use one subwoofer output, split it to the two subs, and adjust the phase to optimize integration. The Rythmik thread on AVS or Enrico or Brian at Rythmik can help with that.

For placement, Todd Welti's paper is a good start: https://www.harman.com/documents/multsubs_0.pdf

Cool. Thank you. So I would basically have speaker/sub cables going from my AVR into the miniDSP and from there to the subs and/or speakers? The EQ profiles are loaded into the miniDSP?

Sorry for my ignorance.

Thanks for the paper on placement!

 

[Bear123]

Here is a measurement I did today to compare one of my subs placed long ways in the front left corner of my room, with the driver facing to the right. So very close to the front wall, but two feet away from the left wall. I spun it around so that the driver was completely in the corner facing the left wall, and here is how much it changed the response:

Question about using the Umik-1 microphone to gauge placement and room acoustics. If I use something like that then with the SVS subs I could use the app to alter them with the parametric EQ. With the other subs I'm not sure how I could use that information other than to change the gain or to position them in a different space. Like most family rooms I don't have a lot of leeway where I put the subs anyway, because it is not a dedicated HT or listening room, but a living room. Is there a way to upload EQ from something like the Umik-1 into an AVR like my Onkyo AVR? Otherwise how could I use it to EQ the subs anyway?

Thanks!

There is a potentially big advantage of measuring with UMIK-1 even if you don't eq the subs(right away). Measuring will show you if you have a big issue with the response. Adjusting position and placement becomes more feasible if you see your frequency response is a train wreck. My subs are also in my living room and I have constraints that I have to conform to for placement. But the big 40 Hz suck out you see in my graph stays there when I add a 2nd sub in the front of the room. No way I'm spending big money for dual subs to end up with poor quality bass. So measuring caused me/allowed me to find a more suitable placement for the 2nd sub that now yields a very flat and smooth response.

As one idea already mentioned, just turning the subs to get the driver closer to a wall can have a big impact on response. Adjust delay can make a drastic difference, as well as minor level adjustments. For example, my 2nd sub fills in the 40 Hz dip. When the subs are 100% level matched, the dip is almost filled in. If I turn the 2nd sub up just a dB or two, it completely eliminates the recessed response in this area, gaining far more than a dB or two of output in that region. No way to figure this stuff out without measuring.

Ultimately, I find that Audysey XT32 along with SubEQ HT does a pretty darn good job of setting up dual subs; probably one of the best out there in terms or automatic room correction, especially if you get the app.

If you don't have an Audysey XT32 AVR, another cost effective solution would be a miniDSP. I'd probably spring for the 2x4 HD although the standard version is cheaper. The HD is $300 including the Umik-1 mic, and will allow you to import eq filters from REW, save multiple presets, and even use a remote to change presets. The really nice thing about this route is that it is a somewhat permanent solution that can be used even as you change/switch/upgrade gear/rooms etc. The Umik has a lot of uses including of course speaker measurements….you might find that pushing your speakers back closer to the wall can actually improve response issues do to SBIR.

 

[eriksson]

I have Focal Aria 926 with Focal sub F1000. My living room is 30 sqm ~300sqf + open to corridor. Ceiling going up to 5m. Nothing scientific to say but the sub plays very nice with the towers, when listening to music I don't even know it's there except when I turn it off - seemless integration so to speak and fantastic addition to the towers. Denon AVR3600 took care of the calibration. I put the sub in a corner according to Focal recommendations.

From what I understand we can't locate sub 90hz indoors. I tried listening to the sub alone with 90hz cutoff and it seems to be correct. So it doesn't mess with the stereo image from the towers. Watching action movies this sub rattles the two stories concrete building I live in quite a bit. I only use fraction of it's power because I like my neighbors. And it's only 21 kg if memory serves me.

But then - this sub is my first and I have no comparison.

 

[Slayer]

Thanks! The Monolith from Monoprice will get you as low as the more expensive subs, but might not be as controlled?

Thanks for chatting!

The Monoliths are very tight, tactile and controlled. Made me sell my SVS subs immediately.

 

[luft262]

Here is a measurement I did today to compare one of my subs placed long ways in the front left corner of my room, with the driver facing to the right. So very close to the front wall, but two feet away from the left wall. I spun it around so that the driver was completely in the corner facing the left wall, and here is how much it changed the response:
View attachment 129899

There is a potentially big advantage of measuring with UMIK-1 even if you don't eq the subs(right away). Measuring will show you if you have a big issue with the response. Adjusting position and placement becomes more feasible if you see your frequency response is a train wreck. My subs are also in my living room and I have constraints that I have to conform to for placement. But the big 40 Hz suck out you see in my graph stays there when I add a 2nd sub in the front of the room. No way I'm spending big money for dual subs to end up with poor quality bass. So measuring caused me/allowed me to find a more suitable placement for the 2nd sub that now yields a very flat and smooth response.

As one idea already mentioned, just turning the subs to get the driver closer to a wall can have a big impact on response. Adjust delay can make a drastic difference, as well as minor level adjustments. For example, my 2nd sub fills in the 40 Hz dip. When the subs are 100% level matched, the dip is almost filled in. If I turn the 2nd sub up just a dB or two, it completely eliminates the recessed response in this area, gaining far more than a dB or two of output in that region. No way to figure this stuff out without measuring.

Ultimately, I find that Audysey XT32 along with SubEQ HT does a pretty darn good job of setting up dual subs; probably one of the best out there in terms or automatic room correction, especially if you get the app.

If you don't have an Audysey XT32 AVR, another cost effective solution would be a miniDSP. I'd probably spring for the 2x4 HD although the standard version is cheaper. The HD is $300 including the Umik-1 mic, and will allow you to import eq filters from REW, save multiple presets, and even use a remote to change presets. The really nice thing about this route is that it is a somewhat permanent solution that can be used even as you change/switch/upgrade gear/rooms etc. The Umik has a lot of uses including of course speaker measurements….you might find that pushing your speakers back closer to the wall can actually improve response issues do to SBIR.

Wow! Thanks so much. That was a great example/explanation. When I searched the miniDSP it shows a schematic of the source to the preamp to miniDSP to the subs (or in the case of the speakers to the amp and then to the speakers). What if you don't have separates? I could go from the AVR to the subs, but what about the speakers? I guess I could use the MiniDSP for the subs only and later get a seperate amp for the speakers and use the pre outs on the AVR...getting pricey, lol! Is there a way to use the MiniDSP for both the subs and speakers with only an AVR?

Thanks!

Thanks.

 

[Chrispy]

Well easy to do better than your Polk subs in any case Hsu subs would be another worthy candidate. Rel I wouldn't bother with. Don't focus much on the wattage, without other information it doesn't mean much. Hopefully the sub designer provides an adequate amp....

Subs that can reach lower than your current ones may well find things to rattle. Sometimes you just gotta tighten up the stuff in the room (or add a little padding/putty to keep the noise down/under control).

Musicality means what in a sub? Or any other audio gear? Tightness could be related to system Q, tho, perhaps you'd prefer a lower Q than higher (say maybe .5 vs .707). I'd focus on basic performance of the sub than worry about how some might describe things, tho....these are low bass frequencies and don't have the characteristics some attribute IMO.

 

[Beershaun]

Thanks! The comparison spreadsheet helps a lot! Clearly the monolith, rythmik, and SVS all outperform my Polk subs. The SVS are the weakest, which makes sense because they are the lightest. For the same price as the SVS SB 2000 Pro the monolith reach deeper.

I have two follow up questions.

1. For subsonic bass (below 20 Hz). I know we can't hear that and only feel it. I love the way good bass feels, but will all that subsonic bass rattle all the shit in my room? If I crank my current crappy subs I already get some rattle. For me, rattle is annoying and I'd like to get the most bass I can out of my room without the rattle. I guess I'm scared that a larger sub might feel better but cause audible unpleasantness in the form of room rattle.

2. Am I correct in saying that the database is great for seeing how deep a sub will go, but it can't tell you how "tight" or "musical" it sounds? Meaning I'd have to lean on subjective reviews for that. I'm getting the impression that the large and expensive Rythmik, Hsu, and REL subs will give you deep bass and also tight control. The SVS are good for the money and offer convenience in terms of control via the app. The Monolith from Monoprice will get you as low as the more expensive subs, but might not be as controlled?

Thanks for chatting!

Good question. The rating specification is a given spl at a specific distortion level and given frequency. So the higher spl rating means the sub has less distortion and does not reach the spec distortion level until it gets louder. So tight and musical are really descriptions of distortion and amplifier clipping at a certain frequency and spl. So looking at the sheet, a higher spl indicates also means less distortion at that frequency. So higher spl in the test spec also means the speaker has less distortion at real world sound levels. So it will be tighter and more musical.
Also I'd recommend you watch Amirs recent video on music sound levels. He explains how the real world spl needed for lower frequencies is much higher that what we typically think about as safe listening levels. E.g. at 80-85 spl a-weighted sound levels your low frequency sounds will need to be 20-30db higher to achieve the same perceived loudness level. So 100-120db is a real world spl range for subwoofer usage.

Regarding the room vibration. As others have said. You need to apply room correction software and bass management dsp. You use a microphone and a piece of software like Room Eq Wizard, to record a test tone. This determines your rooms natural resonate frequency. You then apply bass management dsp in the subwoofer or integrated amplifier to reduce the power level for that specific resonate frequency. This will make your bass less boomy and make the room shake less while still giving you the deep bass.

So don't worry about the bass going too low. It really depends on your rooms specific resonate frequency.

 

[Chrispy]

Wow! Thanks so much. That was a great example/explanation. When I searched the miniDSP it shows a schematic of the source to the preamp to miniDSP to the subs (or in the case of the speakers to the amp and then to the speakers). What if you don't have separates? I could go from the AVR to the subs, but what about the speakers? I guess I could use the MiniDSP for the subs only and later get a seperate amp for the speakers and use the pre outs on the AVR...getting pricey, lol! Is there a way to use the MiniDSP for both the subs and speakers with only an AVR?

Thanks!

Thanks.

The avr can high pass the speakers and do general bass management, you can use a minidsp with just the subs.....