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Help Choosing Between Subs

As far as weight goes, I personally don't think this is a good metric to base a subwoofer purchase on. Did anyone ever say….ugg…I don't want to buy that couch…it weighs 110 lbs. I want to buy the really light 60 lb couch. If anything, most would probably wonder if the light couch was poorly constructed. A heavier sub is a potentially better sub….beefier driver, beefier amp, beefier enclosure. Anyways, a grown man should be able to lift 100 lbs bar some kind of disability. If not, use two people like you would for a couch. Once in place, they can be slid around fairly easy with furniture sliders if moving a 100 lb object is not feasible. If you had to move them several times a day up and down stairs, every day that you own them, I think weight would be a valid concern. Otherwise, maybe not so important?

This is a good point. FWIW, I live alone and I was able to move my 4 220lbs subs into place on my own and it wasn't too bad. They're too big for me to really lift and carry(like my other subs), but there are other ways to move them around that aren't too difficult(and I'm a fairly small/weak guy). Once you get them in the right spot, you really never have to move them again.

That said, I do get that it makes moving/relocating more difficult, if that's something you do often.
 
Cool. Thank you. So I would basically have speaker/sub cables going from my AVR into the miniDSP and from there to the subs and/or speakers? The EQ profiles are loaded into the miniDSP?

Sorry for my ignorance.

Thanks for the paper on placement!

Yes, though you only need to do the subs if you are using your AVR's room correction. And you can get away without the miniDSP; I dialed the phase in on my subs using REW to check the measurements and called it a day, letting the AVR handle the subs as a single sub once I had them all in phase.
 
to help you put things in perspective, my sealed home theater is 1931cuft. i have dual SVS SB1000s positioned assymetrically and diagonally near the front and rear wall for the most even bass response. while they provide more than adequate bass output for my needs, i would not hesitate to have something that can deliver several notches higher for that headroom. you can never have too much bass coz its easier to dial it down. your space is double of mine so you do the math. am curious your polks can deliver that much in such a large space.

Yeah, it's nuts. Maybe because they are ported and near a wall. Also, they are near the corners, but not in the corner. I run them at 50% gain on the sub, but the AVR puts them at +4dB when I run auto setup with the included mic. I had to put little felt pads on the corners of all the pictures hanging on the walls and on the feet of shelving in some of the cabinets. I basically played static bass frequencies on YouTube and then walked around the room looking for rattle. It's pretty rattle free now. I agree you can always turn them down!
 
This is a good point. FWIW, I live alone and I was able to move my 4 220lbs subs into place on my own and it wasn't too bad. They're too big for me to really lift and carry(like my other subs), but there are other ways to move them around that aren't too difficult(and I'm a fairly small/weak guy). Once you get them in the right spot, you really never have to move them again.

That said, I do get that it makes moving/relocating more difficult, if that's something you do often.

I agree weight is not my main concern, but it was just one more variable to think about along with everything else. I'm a fairly big guy, 6'1" 180 lbs. I mountain bike a lot and I'm fairly athletic. Picking up a weight or something with a handle is no problem, but moving expensive speakers you don't want to drop is another. I agree, once in place they will rarely, if ever, be moved, but it's still concerning that at 100lbs plus it is a hassle to move them in the case of room movement, house movement, selling them, shipping them, or giving them to a family member or friend down the line. It's a small thing to worry about, but stuff that I could fit in an SUV and move myself to sell/give away down the line when upgrading is a bonus. It's nice not to have to call on friends or use a dolly etc. It didn't mean it to be my deciding factor, but if two subs have similar bass output and one can be easily moved that's something to consider. On the other hand I agree that heavier and larger speakers tend to have better components and sound quality is my primary concern.

Thank you for your input.
 
Yes, though you only need to do the subs if you are using your AVR's room correction. And you can get away without the miniDSP; I dialed the phase in on my subs using REW to check the measurements and called it a day, letting the AVR handle the subs as a single sub once I had them all in phase.

That sounds like a great idea. My AVR can do room correction, but it doesn't show me the graphs that I could use to tweak their corrections. It's too bad the miniDSP/mic can't simply be plugged into the AVR to see the room correction graphs and make changes that would be saved in the AVR. That would be a great feature. I'm surprised Denon or somebody hasn't teamed up with miniDSP to do something like that with their higher-end offerings.
 
I agree weight is not my main concern, but it was just one more variable to think about along with everything else. I'm a fairly big guy, 6'1" 180 lbs. I mountain bike a lot and I'm fairly athletic. Picking up a weight or something with a handle is no problem, but moving expensive speakers you don't want to drop is another. I agree, once in place they will rarely, if ever, be moved, but it's still concerning that at 100lbs plus it is a hassle to move them in the case of room movement, house movement, selling them, shipping them, or giving them to a family member or friend down the line. It's a small thing to worry about, but stuff that I could fit in an SUV and move myself to sell/give away down the line when upgrading is a bonus. It's nice not to have to call on friends or use a dolly etc. It didn't mean it to be my deciding factor, but if two subs have similar bass output and one can be easily moved that's something to consider. On the other hand I agree that heavier and larger speakers tend to have better components and sound quality is my primary concern.

Thank you for your input.

I was able to move my 220lb subs by deadlifting them upright, then going around to the other side and reverse deadlifting them down to the ground. The only catch is you need to put something underneath when you set it down so that you can get your fingers underneath to grip for the deadlift. The deadlift itself was pretty easy, as I'm thinking it was always less than half the weight of sub. Honestly, you might be able to just carry a 100lb sub(depends if you can get a grip). I'm 5'9" 155lbs FWIW.
 
Looking through some of the recommended subs that are in my price range and assuming I want to go dual subs I think the Rythmik F12, Monoprice Monolith 12" THX Ultra, and the SVS SB 2000 Pro stand out. I could also go with something like a single Rythmik E22 then maybe get a second one later. It doesn't have results in the subwoofer database, but I'm sure it digs deep.

Monoprice Monolith 12" THX Ultra: Digs the deepest, down to 87.7 dB at 12.5 Hz in the spreadsheet, 101.2 at 15 Hz. It has no DSP/EQ controls on the sub itself. I could get a mic, remote, and miniDSP HD on amazon for about $300 so at $800 per sub plus the DSP I'd be at about $1,900 for two subs and full tertiary DSP control.

Rythmik F12: Digs the second deepest, 95 dB at 15 Hz. It can correct 1 frequency node via the sub itself with manual onboard controls so I could probably get away with just a UMIK-1 mic for about $100. It costs $980 so I'm looking at about $2,000. On a side note lots of people/sites online say the Rythmik subs are very accurate, for what that's worth.

SVS SB-2000 Pro: Digs the least deep, 91 dB at 15 Hz. It has onboard DSP via the app, so I won't need a miniDSP. It costs $900 (for glossy black, which I like), but if you buy two they give you a discount so $1,700 for two subs.

Basically, it comes down to how much I want to spend and care about tertiary features vs deep bass vs trusting subjective reviews of accuracy/musicality/tightness online. Monoprice objectively goes lower. Rythmic subjectively sounds better, according to many. SVS is cheaper and more convenient.

I've got some decisions to make...First world problems are great!
 
I was able to move my 220lb subs by deadlifting them upright, then going around to the other side and reverse deadlifting them down to the ground. The only catch is you need to put something underneath when you set it down so that you can get your fingers underneath to grip for the deadlift. The deadlift itself was pretty easy, as I'm thinking it was always less than half the weight of sub. Honestly, you might be able to just carry a 100lb sub(depends if you can get a grip). I'm 5'9" 155lbs FWIW.

Savage
 
Looking through some of the recommended subs that are in my price range and assuming I want to go dual subs I think the Rythmik F12, Monoprice Monolith 12" THX Ultra, and the SVS SB 2000 Pro stand out. I could also go with something like a single Rythmik E22 then maybe get a second one later. It doesn't have results in the subwoofer database, but I'm sure it digs deep.

Monoprice Monolith 12" THX Ultra: Digs the deepest, down to 87.7 dB at 12.5 Hz in the spreadsheet, 101.2 at 15 Hz. It has no DSP/EQ controls on the sub itself. I could get a mic, remote, and miniDSP HD on amazon for about $300 so at $800 per sub plus the DSP I'd be at about $1,900 for two subs and full tertiary DSP control.

Rythmik F12: Digs the second deepest, 95 dB at 15 Hz. It can correct 1 frequency node via the sub itself with manual onboard controls so I could probably get away with just a UMIK-1 mic for about $100. It costs $980 so I'm looking at about $2,000. On a side note lots of people/sites online say the Rythmik subs are very accurate, for what that's worth.

SVS SB-2000 Pro: Digs the least deep, 91 dB at 15 Hz. It has onboard DSP via the app, so I won't need a miniDSP. It costs $900 (for glossy black, which I like), but if you buy two they give you a discount so $1,700 for two subs.

Basically, it comes down to how much I want to spend and care about tertiary features vs deep bass vs trusting subjective reviews of accuracy/musicality/tightness online. Monoprice objectively goes lower. Rythmic subjectively sounds better, according to many. SVS is cheaper and more convenient.

I've got some decisions to make...First world problems are great!
I know SVS has an in-home free trial period. So you can purchase, try it out, then free return ship it back if you don't like it. If the others have this same option you can order 2 or all 3, do a side by side comparison and then return the ones you don't like. From a convenience and price standpoint the SVS option gives you everything you need in one package and it comes in a little cheaper, especially with the multi-purchase discount. I would recommend the more convenient option if it's your first time trying to figure out all the room correction and bass management stuff. It will be much simpler to get up and running with a good sounding setup.

If you had an integrated amplifier or AVR with room correction and eq built in like Denon/Audyssey or NAD/Dirac I'd steer you to the Monolith since it's the overall best performer.
 
SVS SB-2000 Pro: Digs the least deep, 91 dB at 15 Hz. It has onboard DSP via the app, so I won't need a miniDSP. It costs $900 (for glossy black, which I like), but if you buy two they give you a discount so $1,700 for two subs.

One thing to keep in mind is that the SVS app only allows for 3 PEQs. The miniDSP allows 10, so you'll have much more ability to fine-tune the EQ with the miniDSP. The miniDSP also gives you tools to help integrate your subs with each other and with your mains. I don't think that the SVS app lets you do that.
 
I know SVS has an in-home free trial period. So you can purchase, try it out, then free return ship it back if you don't like it. If the others have this same option you can order 2 or all 3, do a side by side comparison and then return the ones you don't like. From a convenience and price standpoint the SVS option gives you everything you need in one package and it comes in a little cheaper, especially with the multi-purchase discount. I would recommend the more convenient option if it's your first time trying to figure out all the room correction and bass management stuff. It will be much simpler to get up and running with a good sounding setup.

If you had an integrated amplifier or AVR with room correction and eq built in like Denon/Audyssey or NAD/Dirac I'd steer you to the Monolith since it's the overall best performer.

My Onkyo AVR does have room correction, but you just run it and then it's in the background. When you run the setup with the mic it sets the distance for each speaker (which is actually very accurate) the crossovers, (which are not very accurate or at least not logical), and room correction, although it recommends to not include the left and right speaker in the room correction part if they are not the same as all the other speakers, which I don't fully understand why.
 
The usual DSP solution with a UMIK-1 is to use REW to generate the filters and program them into something like a miniDSP unit in-line between AVR and sub(s) -- or AVP and amplifiers.

Rythmik E/F series subwoofers do have a single-band parametric EQ which covers the main room mode for most of us but does not have the flexibility of built-in DSP. That is one way Brian keeps the price down and performance high. They also have continuous phase control so you can use one subwoofer output, split it to the two subs, and adjust the phase to optimize integration. The Rythmik thread on AVS or Enrico or Brian at Rythmik can help with that.

For placement, Todd Welti's paper is a good start: https://www.harman.com/documents/multsubs_0.pdf

After reading the paper/pdf you linked it looks like two subs, one directly in front and behind or one directly to either side, in the middle of the wall, is the best. That will not work in my room, because at about the middle point on the left wall the room opens up to a guest bedroom, bathroom, washroom etc. Also, my room is open at the back (no back wall) and opens into the kitchen (very open floor/home design). So the middle of the room might not actually act like the middle of the room. I mostly have to place the subs on the back wall and they end up offset from either corner.

It seems to me I could just get one really good sub and the UMIK-1 mic and see what nodes of correction I have vs the target curve. If there is only one trouble node, and I got the Rhythmik E22 monster sub, I could correct the one node using the on sub's manual controls. If there are two or more I could get a miniDSP and go from there.

On a side note, how many dB from the target curve does a node generally have to be before it is considered "excessively troublesome" and needing to be corrected? Like 5 dB?

Is there any reason to just get two subs right off the bat? The paper makes it seem like one would be better off getting one sub and running some measurements first. You could correct everything you possibly can by changing the placement/direction of the one sub and using DSP and only get a second sub if both of those options fail? Two subs right off the bat would only make sense for people who aren't going to get a mic or do DSP so the second sub will hopefully correct for problems without having to measure, change placement, or use DSP.

Does that sound correct?
 
One thing to keep in mind is that the SVS app only allows for 3 PEQs. The miniDSP allows 10, so you'll have much more ability to fine-tune the EQ with the miniDSP. The miniDSP also gives you tools to help integrate your subs with each other and with your mains. I don't think that the SVS app lets you do that.

I just realized too, that I would still have to purchase a mic like the UMIK-1 with the SVS subs, because even though it has built in DSP controls I highly doubt it has a built in mic to show me the graph... I'd need the mic to know what to correct.
 
I just realized too, that I would still have to purchase a mic like the UMIK-1 with the SVS subs, because even though it has built in DSP controls I highly doubt it has a built in mic to show me the graph... I'd need the mic to know what to correct.

It's one thing to measure, another to implement dsp based on that (like is possible with REW and appropriate hardware). A measurement mic and software is a good thing, tho.
 
My Onkyo AVR does have room correction, but you just run it and then it's in the background. When you run the setup with the mic it sets the distance for each speaker (which is actually very accurate) the crossovers, (which are not very accurate or at least not logical), and room correction, although it recommends to not include the left and right speaker in the room correction part if they are not the same as all the other speakers, which I don't fully understand why.

I wouldn't put too much energy into using AccuEQ....maybe use it for basic level/delay settings. Maybe.
 
After reading the paper/pdf you linked it looks like two subs, one directly in front and behind or one directly to either side, in the middle of the wall, is the best. That will not work in my room, because at about the middle point on the left wall the room opens up to a guest bedroom, bathroom, washroom etc. Also, my room is open at the back (no back wall) and opens into the kitchen (very open floor/home design). So the middle of the room might not actually act like the middle of the room. I mostly have to place the subs on the back wall and they end up offset from either corner.

It seems to me I could just get one really good sub and the UMIK-1 mic and see what nodes of correction I have vs the target curve. If there is only one trouble node, and I got the Rhythmik E22 monster sub, I could correct the one node using the on sub's manual controls. If there are two or more I could get a miniDSP and go from there.

On a side note, how many dB from the target curve does a node generally have to be before it is considered "excessively troublesome" and needing to be corrected? Like 5 dB?

Is there any reason to just get two subs right off the bat? The paper makes it seem like one would be better off getting one sub and running some measurements first. You could correct everything you possibly can by changing the placement/direction of the one sub and using DSP and only get a second sub if both of those options fail? Two subs right off the bat would only make sense for people who aren't going to get a mic or do DSP so the second sub will hopefully correct for problems without having to measure, change placement, or use DSP.

Does that sound correct?

Busy, quick answer...

I would get one sub to start and see how it works. I normally advocate for more subs but starting out it is easier to place and play with one to see what you can get before tackling the multi-sub challenge. As others have said, you have a very large volume to fill, but how much you really need depends upon your preference in bass energy. Two subs makes sense if you can afford them, and can place the second one in a reasonable spot to help reduce room modes. The problems are related to room dimensions, not mic or DSP, and more subs will almost always result in smoother in-room response. You cannot correct a deep null with EQ -- it comes from the direct sound wave interacting with the reflected sound out of phase and subtracting to create the null. So if you have a signal of 1 and the reflected wave is -1 then when they sum at the listening position 1 - 1 = 0. If you use a bigger amp and/or bigger sub, then 10 - 10 is still 0. In practice nulls can easily be 20 ~ 30 dB which means you'd need 100x to 1000x the power to overcome them. Even if your speakers would take that much power, the rest of the room out of the null would be insanely loud.

Moving the main listening position (MLP) out the null is optimal if at all possible. Sometimes moving the couch a couple of feet forward or back is enough. Remember bass nulls caused by room modes are due to room dimensions; they will not move (unless you change room dimensions), so you must move or use careful positioning of the sub(s) to counter the nulls.

How deep a null matters also depends upon how wide (in frequency). Wall construction (stiffness), the effect of furniture and other things in the room, room dimensions, listening position, room treatments, etc. all affect the response. A narrow 10-20 dB or more dip might be less noticeable than a wide 5 dB dip.

You might want to check one of the on-line room mode calculators to get an idea where they are in your room. I believe REW includes an estimator, so if you think you are going to use it, might as well download it (it is free) and start playing around. Others are on the Real Traps site (www.realtraps.com), the amcoustics site (amroc - THE Room Mode Calculator ), etc.
 
Looking through some of the recommended subs that are in my price range and assuming I want to go dual subs I think the Rythmik F12, Monoprice Monolith 12" THX Ultra, and the SVS SB 2000 Pro stand out. I could also go with something like a single Rythmik E22 then maybe get a second one later. It doesn't have results in the subwoofer database, but I'm sure it digs deep.

Monoprice Monolith 12" THX Ultra: Digs the deepest, down to 87.7 dB at 12.5 Hz in the spreadsheet, 101.2 at 15 Hz. It has no DSP/EQ controls on the sub itself. I could get a mic, remote, and miniDSP HD on amazon for about $300 so at $800 per sub plus the DSP I'd be at about $1,900 for two subs and full tertiary DSP control.

Rythmik F12: Digs the second deepest, 95 dB at 15 Hz. It can correct 1 frequency node via the sub itself with manual onboard controls so I could probably get away with just a UMIK-1 mic for about $100. It costs $980 so I'm looking at about $2,000. On a side note lots of people/sites online say the Rythmik subs are very accurate, for what that's worth.

SVS SB-2000 Pro: Digs the least deep, 91 dB at 15 Hz. It has onboard DSP via the app, so I won't need a miniDSP. It costs $900 (for glossy black, which I like), but if you buy two they give you a discount so $1,700 for two subs.

Basically, it comes down to how much I want to spend and care about tertiary features vs deep bass vs trusting subjective reviews of accuracy/musicality/tightness online. Monoprice objectively goes lower. Rythmic subjectively sounds better, according to many. SVS is cheaper and more convenient.

I've got some decisions to make...First world problems are great!
One thing to mention. Monoprice has 10% and 20% off sales all the time. Plus there is a discount when buying two.
Personally i would go with Rythmik or Monoliths over the SVS. I also believe the Monolith digs deeper than the SVS.
Below taken form Audioholics.com testing. Erin also tested them a little better I believe.
1621180214845.png
 
My room is 17 x 25 x 9 feet. I believe that's a volume of 3,835 feet cubed and an area of 425 feet squared. It seams like a large area, but only half of it is the HT area and the back half just has a table and some stuff. There is no back wall, only a step up with a railing that leads to the kitchen with 18 foot ceiling.
My room is similar, 16 x 23 x11 in cubic feet, but it is one room. I use it almost exclusively for home theater and Rythmik recommended two FV15HP’s. The upgrade from my single PSB 10” sub was remarkable, not just in how much lower they could get, but in smoother low end room response. I would look into the lower cost F15HP’s. Still heavy though, but on carpet mine slide easily.
 
Rythmik provides sliders for floor and carpet that makes them pretty easy to move, once you get them to the room. Unboxing is easy (follow the directions). The biggest pain (literally) is if you have to get them up stairs. If you buy another brand, then pick up some furniture sliders from Walmart, Amazon, or Other Fine Shopping Center to help move (slide) them around the room.

Rythmik also provides a multi-sub discount valid after you buy your first. I bought my first pair in 2010 and they applied the discount to both subs, and have applied it to the additional three I have bought since (last one was about a year ago and they still gave me the discount). Rythmik also has a rep for outstanding customer service. But remember I am biased... A lot of subs have a number of dedicated fans.
 
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