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Heard a Revel and JBL Synthesis for the first time: F208, F228Be, 4367. A surprise for sure!

GXAlan

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Thanks for this wise and realistic comment. I'm just trying to figure out technically WHY The 4367 sounds like it does and how I can find other speakers that have the same type of sound.
There is a video somewhere that Charles Sprinkle was talking about instantaneous power compression. The woofer in the 4367 has this low TCR wire which avoids that. The JBL 4312E has the same design. (not later generations).

Post in thread 'JBL 4349 Review (Studio Monitor Speaker)'
https://audiosciencereview.com/foru...view-studio-monitor-speaker.22686/post-756279

On the Lansing Heritage, people have said that the 4367 sounded better than the M2. It shouldn’t. But it was thought that the narrower dispersion horn might actually reduce interaction with the room that the person was listening to.
 

Bugal1998

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Comparison of the two in the same graph, lightly more high-end in the 4367 from 5-9k but very slight. There is no way this was the primary difference I heard.
Warning! Pure speculation commencing...

Hopefully those with actual expertise will chime in and correct my errant pondering as needed.

In a live chat with Erin's Audio Corner, Greg Timbers stated that there's an inverse relationship between the dispersion width of the speaker and the liveliness of the speaker (I. E. Wider dispersion places more demands on the tweeter for the same on axis SPL, reducing liveliness).

2) Compression drivers and larger woofers have less of an impedence mismatch with the air, and more efficiently transfer energy to the air. You could argue that higher sensitivity simply results in less power required...

But 3), the magnitude of SPL transients in live music aren't captured in the types of distortion and compression testing done by reviewers (No, I'm not saying the liveliness of speakers like the 4367 can't be measured, I'm saying it simply may not be measured in the current suite of tests) . Peak live music SPL for even acoustic instruments is commonly in the range of 115db or higher (see Amir's video here). That same video notes that a specialized peak spl detector is required to accurately measure those peaks, whereas a typical SPL meter would show a lower number. Therefore, I wonder if the large woofer/compression driver combination comes just a bit closer to fully reproducing the types of low duration high intensity peak SPL transients that are commonly found in music, and we perceive those speakers as 'more dynamic', or 'more live/realistic' in comparison to wider dispersion, lower sensitivity, lower max SPL capable speakers.

Edit: even if the transients in recorded music are lower, might it be that the same factors reproduce those transients just a bit more faithfully?

End speculation.
 

Bugal1998

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There is a video somewhere that Charles Sprinkle was talking about instantaneous power compression. The woofer in the 4367 has this low TCR wire which avoids that. The JBL 4312E has the same design. (not later generations).

Post in thread 'JBL 4349 Review (Studio Monitor Speaker)'
https://audiosciencereview.com/foru...view-studio-monitor-speaker.22686/post-756279

On the Lansing Heritage, people have said that the 4367 sounded better than the M2. It shouldn’t. But it was thought that the narrower dispersion horn might actually reduce interaction with the room that the person was listening to.
"Instantaneous power compression"; well said!

In my experience, out of the box, the M2 is a tad brighter than the 4367. Erin's Audio Corner measured the brightness difference and reported the same subjective observation.

Erin also speculated that the tonality difference could be related to dispersion differences.

I've found that with a bit of built-in EQ the M2 brightness is fully resolved. I can't say which speaker sounds better as I haven't been able to do any type of valid comparison.
 

Chromatischism

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Comparison of the two in the same graph, lightly more high-end in the 4367 from 5-9k but very slight. There is no way this was the primary difference I heard.
I see big differences.

The solid line shows more attenuation off axis, and the directivity is much narrower, leading to a more focused sound. There will be less reflected energy and more apparent clarity.
 

Chromatischism

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But 3), the magnitude of SPL transients in live music aren't captured in the types of distortion and compression testing done by reviewers (No, I'm not saying the liveliness of speakers like the 4367 can't be measured, I'm saying it simply may not be measured in the current suite of tests) . Peak live music SPL for even acoustic instruments is commonly in the range of 115db or higher (see Amir's video here). That same video notes that a specialized peak spl detector is required to accurately measure those peaks, whereas a typical SPL meter would show a lower number.
Alright, so here's the test. You get an accurate measurement of an entire song with each speaker, and overlay them with the original waveform. See which one comes the closest.
 

Bugal1998

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Alright, so here's the test. You get an accurate measurement of an entire song with each speaker, and overlay them with the original waveform. See which one comes the closest.
Would love to try it
 

GXAlan

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Found it! 16:30 is where Charles Sprinkle talks about the low TCR wire which probably accounts for some of the sound of the 4367. The whole discussion on the design of the woofer is worth listening too.
 

Laserjock

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Found it! 16:30 is where Charles Sprinkle talks about the low TCR wire which probably accounts for some of the sound of the 4367. The whole discussion on the design of the woofer is worth listening too.
Is the AlMg alloy still used today?
 

fredoamigo

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1. Proper level matching
2. Blind testing

Explained earlier. Five pages earlier.
With the optimal listening distances which are not necessarily the same between JBL and REVEL .
 
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paulgyro

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1. Proper level matching
2. Blind testing

Explained earlier. Five pages earlier.
I'm not sure what what/who you are responding to as this thread has majorly wondered but I attribute the difference more to the wide baffle width of the JBL at this point and much more controlled / narrow directivity of the JBL vs nearly omnidirectional Revels.
 
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paulgyro

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There is a video somewhere that Charles Sprinkle was talking about instantaneous power compression. The woofer in the 4367 has this low TCR wire which avoids that. The JBL 4312E has the same design. (not later generations).

Post in thread 'JBL 4349 Review (Studio Monitor Speaker)'
https://audiosciencereview.com/foru...view-studio-monitor-speaker.22686/post-756279

On the Lansing Heritage, people have said that the 4367 sounded better than the M2. It shouldn’t. But it was thought that the narrower dispersion horn might actually reduce interaction with the room that the person was listening to.
I think you are on to something with your comment about the dispersion of the speaker. I think the wide baffle push more of the sound forward too. This can be obverved in publish spinorama data.
 
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paulgyro

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Warning! Pure speculation commencing...

Hopefully those with actual expertise will chime in and correct my errant pondering as needed.

In a live chat with Erin's Audio Corner, Greg Timbers stated that there's an inverse relationship between the dispersion width of the speaker and the liveliness of the speaker (I. E. Wider dispersion places more demands on the tweeter for the same on axis SPL, reducing liveliness).

2) Compression drivers and larger woofers have less of an impedence mismatch with the air, and more efficiently transfer energy to the air. You could argue that higher sensitivity simply results in less power required...

But 3), the magnitude of SPL transients in live music aren't captured in the types of distortion and compression testing done by reviewers (No, I'm not saying the liveliness of speakers like the 4367 can't be measured, I'm saying it simply may not be measured in the current suite of tests) . Peak live music SPL for even acoustic instruments is commonly in the range of 115db or higher (see Amir's video here). That same video notes that a specialized peak spl detector is required to accurately measure those peaks, whereas a typical SPL meter would show a lower number. Therefore, I wonder if the large woofer/compression driver combination comes just a bit closer to fully reproducing the types of low duration high intensity peak SPL transients that are commonly found in music, and we perceive those speakers as 'more dynamic', or 'more live/realistic' in comparison to wider dispersion, lower sensitivity, lower max SPL capable speakers.

Edit: even if the transients in recorded music are lower, might it be that the same factors reproduce those transients just a bit more faithfully?

End speculation.
Interesting speculation, and I watched the same GT interview and have even discussed this topic with Erin directly. I really want to find away to objectively quantify or are least suggest objectively measured what I and other have heard.
 

Tangband

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The other day I want to my local Revel dealer, US Tube Audio in Scottsdale, AZ

I was able to listen to the F208, F228Be, and the JBL 4367.

I thought I'd share my impressions.

F208: Sounded fine to me, good low end, midrange sounded natural, top end was nice, over all nothing special.
F228Be: Sounded better to me, less low end but more defined maybe, midrange the same, top end seemed more defined to me. Most likely as a result of the Be tweeter?

So, I wasn't super impressed with either, not to point where I was willing to pull out my wallet. I thought it might just be a crappy room.

Next up the JBL 4367. From the moment the music started my jaw was on the floor. Everything sounded real, alive, in the room. The acoustic guitars, clarinets vocals, you name it sounded amazing, accurate, and life like. Bass was amazing and tactile. It ran circles around the Revels while still having great tone, clarity and smoothness.

Unfortunately, they were out of F328Be and Salon2 so I couldn't compare.

Has anyone else experienced this? Is it the horn loaded compression driver that is crossed over at 700 Hz that gives it the life like sound? The high sensitivity? Both? I'm curious but I've got to know at this point as I've got to have speakers that do this, but I can't afford the $16k!

Thoughts?

Paul
You always listen to two speakers playing in a room . If the stereo set up is wrongly installed , meaning one speaker is 30 cm wrongly placed in the room , this setup gonna sound much worse than with an optimal installation .

Im not saying this was the case, but if the three pair of loudspeakers you listened to where in the same room all the time , two of them where surely wrong installed .

The correct way of comparing loudspeakers is to have them in your listening room , listening with only one stereo pair at the time thats been correctly installed where they sound the best in the room .
 
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Kvalsvoll

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I'm just trying to figure out technically WHY The 4367 sounds like it does and how I can find other speakers that have the same type of sound.
Unfortunately, the information you want got lost in noise from power cords. Meaning - having tried to tell this story over again may times, explaining why and how, the message does not get through.

Reading the later posts here now, it seems like some ideas in the right direction has surfaced. Radiation is a huge part of it. Ignoring those who tell you this difference does not exist, also helps a lot.

As for commercial speakers with the sound attributes you seek, there really is not much besides the larger jbl's. And those are really only a starting point, sort of to inspire curiosity. There is more. And if you get to listen to more speakers with this exciting and lively sound character, you realize it comes with a price - other aspects of sound may suffer, and the better ones can be quite expensive.

So most true audiophile enthusiasts resort to diy. They build it. With help from other diy-ers. In an endless pursuit of the holy grail of sound, trying to achieve sound perfection. A great hobby.
 

Duke

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So most true audiophile enthusiasts resort to diy. They build it. With help from other diy-ers. In an endless pursuit of the holy grail of sound, trying to achieve sound perfection. A great hobby.

DIY can also be a "slippery slope"! Hardcore DIY has been the "gateway drug" for more than one loudspeaker manufacturer.
 

Bugal1998

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if you get to listen to more speakers with this exciting and lively sound character, you realize it comes with a price - other aspects of sound may suffer, and the better ones can be quite expensive.
What aspects of sound have you found to "suffer" from a lively presentation... And what do you consider to be "the better ones"? Genuine curiosity on both questions. I've noticed traits I enjoy in the less lively speakers as well, but for me the overall set of trade-offs has landed in favor of livelier speakers thus far.
So most true audiophile enthusiasts resort to diy. They build it. With help from other diy-ers. In an endless pursuit of the holy grail of sound, trying to achieve sound perfection. A great hobby.

I toyed with idea of DIY for a long time, doing lots of research... Research that led me to buying well engineered speakers from a reputable manufacturer. I figured it was likely to be the lower risk path vs. the time and money of DIY (and likely DIYing it again and again to maybe get it right :D)
 

Kvalsvoll

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What aspects of sound have you found to "suffer" from a lively presentation... And what do you consider to be "the better ones"? Genuine curiosity on both questions. I've noticed traits I enjoy in the less lively speakers as well, but for me the overall set of trade-offs has landed in favor of livelier speakers thus far.


I toyed with idea of DIY for a long time, doing lots of research... Research that led me to buying well engineered speakers from a reputable manufacturer. I figured it was likely to be the lower risk path vs. the time and money of DIY (and likely DIYing it again and again to maybe get it right :D)
As @Duke mentions - diy can be a slippery slope. Though it is a lot easier today, with measurements and dsp.

One part that can be more difficult with an exciting speaker is its ability to present a believeable, smooth rendering where the speaker itself disappears completely. Because it requires some sort of directivity control beyond just mounting a driver on a baffle. Even a simple solution like wider baffle causes issues, because the sound diffract around the edges and creates secondary sound sources. This is easier to achive with small direct radiating domes and cones mounted on small, sculpted/rounded baffles, but then you loose the clarity and solidity of the controlled directivity approach.
 

Jimi Floyd

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I must confess I am a long, long time lurker for JBL 4367. Only problem, I live in Europe and it is impossible to hear them live here anywhere since years. I am available to travel but apparently no pair is available for demo in the continent. I have been tempted for long time to order them blind and this post makes my fingers nervously running around the "Buy it now" button. Please tell me I should, please warn me I shouldn't.
 
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