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Heard a Revel and JBL Synthesis for the first time: F208, F228Be, 4367. A surprise for sure!

Dj7675

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theses guys prefered a Revel of the JBL M2: https://www.avsforum.com/threads/sp...akers-ever-made.2907816/page-18#post-54628832

they could have been biased though "compression drivers are bad"
I didn’t see if they took any in room measurements of each speaker or not, but the standard EQ via the BSS Processors/Crown is certainly a bit bright (upwards tilting on axis frequency response). Below is the estimated in room response for the M2 based on Erin’s measurements vs the Salon2 (from HARMAN. While the Salon2 are obviously very smoothed you can see why they would sound very different just on frequency response. It would have been very interesting to EQ the M2 to a more downad tilting frequency response that was similiar to the Salon2. I’m sure they would still sound different from each other but results may have been different (or maybe not). I’m sure the default frequency response of the M2 could seem a bit bright. I would like to hear them both one day.
newplot 16.png
 

Bugal1998

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It could be imagination, born of the very sight of them. In fact, that is the most likely explanation, given that sighted listening tests keep resulting in people being so certain it is physically real, yet this contradicts the only blind test we have access to that has even the slightest credence, which sees the organiser reporting that subjects were very often amazed when it was revealed which one they were just listening to.

What we don’t want to do, if we are going to be evidence-based about cause and effect, is fall into the trap of misattribution, where we assume something must be in the sound waves, with no more evidence than sighted listening reports (which are proven to be no way to determine anything about the sound waves), then cast about looking for the physical attributes that caused it to be in the sound waves. That would be a case of cart-before-the-horse.

@Newman In terms of the need for blind testing to be absolutely sure of differences and preferences, I'm in alignment with you.

Though in this specific situation I can't say I share your same level of conviction that it's imagination. Why?

1) Because unlike wires, DACs, and other equipment with often non-exsitent differences, listeners to these speakers tend to share a common perception and description of these differences between speakers (yes, it could be expectation bias)
2) The differences heard also mirror the respective brands product differentiation objectives
3) Engineers from the company have also commented on these objectives, preferences, and differences

Reasons I may agree with you include the blind shootout leading listens to say the Salon 2 was more dynamic (in fact that pretty strongly supports your position!)

Overall I'm curious and open minded, and not dismissive of either perspective. At the same time I know what I perceived, even if the perception isn't objectively 'real'. In the absence of my own rigorous blind test of both speakers fully optimized, I choose to follow my personal perceptions because that's all I--and probably 99.999% of speakers buyers--have.

FWIW, I have personally never been able to hear differences in DACs, and wires.

Tangential question for the group... It's generally accepted that the Harman preference score reliably differentiates between speakers with on and off axis frequency response non-linearities, resonances, and poor bass response. And those preferences hold between mono and stereo (but easier to differentiate in mono). Do we actually know if two equally well engineered speakers-- both fully optimized with EQ and placement, but with different dispersion widths--would always have the same preference between stereo and mono? Has that ever been scientifically validated?
 

Chromatischism

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Do we actually know if two equally well engineered speakers-- both fully optimized with EQ and placement, but with different dispersion widths--would always have the same preference between stereo and mono? Has that ever been scientifically validated
My thinking is, that will depend on the room - because the only things telling your ears and brain what the dispersion is like are the reflections from the walls.
 

Bugal1998

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My thinking is, that will depend on the room - because the only things telling your ears and brain what the dispersion is like are the reflections from the walls.
I suspect you're right.

I also suspect it could depend on the purpose for listening (critical audio engineering vs. pleasure listening ala Toole's observations on early reflections v), the type of music (I prefer classical with more room reflections), and possibly even individual preference.

Add it to the long list of as yet unresolved audio preference questions...
 

Kvalsvoll

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It could be imagination, born of the very sight of them. In fact, that is the most likely explanation, given that sighted listening tests keep resulting in people being so certain it is physically real, yet this contradicts the only blind test we have access to that has even the slightest credence, which sees the organiser reporting that subjects were very often amazed when it was revealed which one they were listening to.

What we don’t want to do, if we are going to be evidence-based about cause and effect, is fall into the trap of misattribution, where we assume something must be in the sound waves, with no more evidence than sighted listening reports (which are proven to be no way to determine anything about the sound waves), then cast about looking for the physical attributes that caused it to be in the sound waves. That would be a case of cart-before-the-horse.
You have to figure it out yourself. By listening to different systems, observe. It can also be proven theoretically, it can be measured, and it is possible to do controlled experiments to verify different aspects of the effect of radiation pattern on perception of sound, but that costs a lot of money to do, and there really is no incentive to do so from an economic point of view.

And then there is bass. This dynamic and exciting character also applies to bass, there is a difference, and for bass, it seems most people share a similar preference.
 

kmidst

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Some days I hears with both ears and the wife sounds mighty good. Some days I'm hearing with one good ear and one ear running half speed; and the wife don't sound so good and especially she don't sound good on the old Lutheran hymns in the chapel in the church basement. And the church piano has sounded better. I bet those JBL's would make recordings of Naftale Brandwein and Taraf de Haidouks ring most people's bippy. Alternatively, a guy comes in to US Tube Audio and puts on a cd of Richard Strauss German art song sung by Edita Gruberova and everyone flees the room like somebody just put a hot stick in their eye. Yet, the F228be's were made specifically for Edita Gruberover, or so it seems to the man who brought in the cd. Ideal match he concludes. This sounds a lot like a wine tasting event in big tent in a shopping center parking lot where the labels have been removed from all the bottles. I would say, don't order $5,000 to $7,000 worth of specialty wine at a Saturday afternoon wine tasting event in a Scottsdale parking lot. That's what I'd say. I will tell you this though, Arun and I both were pleased by the F208's. I shouldn't speak for Arun publicly, but he said this to me two days ago. And let me add:
Thanks for introducing me to German opera! I can tell you I would have been the one guy still standing there listening to Gruberova sing even though others had left.
 

mhardy6647

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Has anyone else experienced this? Is it the horn loaded compression driver that is crossed over at 700 Hz that gives it the life like sound? The high sensitivity? Both? I'm curious but I've got to know at this point as I've got to have speakers that do this, but I can't afford the $16k!
Yes, both.
It can be done less expensively, but it becomes more of a quest than a shopping trip.
 

fpitas

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Yes, both.
It can be done less expensively, but it becomes more of a quest than a shopping trip.
My "economy" approach for a friend was (used) JBL 2426s ($150 each?) with Radian aluminum diaphragms ($90 each?), bolted onto 511s ($100 each? from Ebay etc.). They aren't quite up to my TAD TD-2002s as far as resolution of quiet details, but there's nothing wrong with them, either. Yes, EQ is strongly suggested, but that's a horn for you. The 511s like usual need the vanes cut and refilled, and I strongly recommend filling the bells. Crossover with the 2426 is about 900Hz LR4 acoustic. The horn rolls off below about 1kHz at 6dB/octave, so you'll have to choose the electrical filter appropriately. I use BW3 with the 3dB point at 980Hz. for the TADs. Your mileage will vary.

If you have never designed speakers from scratch, you're in for an exciting time. Horns are skill level 5.
 
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Sal1950

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I'm curious but I've got to know at this point as I've got to have speakers that do this, but I can't afford the $16k!
Doesn't he carry any of the JBL Synthesis HDI- line?
Much less money but a very good portion of that sound you enjoyed.
I own the HDI-3600 and very happy with them.
 
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