Headphone Amp Ideas - Minus DAC

[svart-hvitt]

What about the Sonifex amps. Broadcast oriented gear. Specs stated. Within budget.

http://www.sonifex.co.uk/category/headphoneamps/index.shtml

 

[Jorj]

Sonifex. Red. So....red. My desk is red. I just need to buy a rack. I think this qualifies for ugly AF. And the lowest price variant is still on the high end. Nice try, though!

 

[svart-hvitt]

Sonifex. Red. So....red. My desk is red. I just need to buy a rack. I think this qualifies for ugly AF. And the lowest price variant is still on the high end. Nice try, though!

The simplest one is silver and cheaper (180 USD, 40 percent under your max price limit):

http://www.sonifex.co.uk/cmhpx1/index.shtml

And remember, this is pro grade where reliability is part of the tested and proven design.

 

[Jorj]

Haha! I don't think a passive amp will quite make my Senns sing. Are you having me on?

 

[svart-hvitt]

Haha! I don't think a passive amp will quite make my Senns sing. Are you having me on?

Some DACs output enough voltage to drive headphones.

 

[Blumlein 88]

I do think trying to buy just an amp these days is going to be an impediment. Just because of what sells, you might well get a device with DAC and headphone amp together for the money which is better. Headphone amp only just doesn't sell in nearly so large a numbers and you get lesser economies of scale.

I too might point to pro audio devices. Even some of the recording and DAC devices have nice headphone amps and all the other stuff you don't need. Yet for the money might be a better result.

An Audient ID14 for $299 has a fairly good headphone output.

https://audient.com/products/audio-interfaces/id14/tech-specs/

You can read the specs here. Done according to AES17 standards. Not as good as having a 3rd party measure, but these people usually meet spec.

There also might be a pro audio or music store near you with these so you could try one out in person.

 

[Jorj]

I do think trying to buy just an amp these days is going to be an impediment. Just because of what sells, you might well get a device with DAC and headphone amp together for the money which is better. Headphone amp only just doesn't sell in nearly so large a numbers and you get lesser economies of scale.

I too might point to pro audio devices. Even some of the recording and DAC devices have nice headphone amps and all the other stuff you don't need. Yet for the money might be a better result.

I'm not opposed to having the DAC, as long as it can be bypassed. The problem is that adding a DAC costs money that I want to see spent on the amp. It's kinda weird. There are a number of choices in the $100-200 range, but then there is a desert all the way up to around $600. The few odd, well made options under $600 are still out there, I just want to find one. They do exist. I appreciate the offers of the pro gear, but they don't seem to offer much in the way of flexibility. You use it like they sent it, and that's it.

That Audient might meet spec, but has all kinds of stuff that I would never use, and again, I just want an amp. No way to bypass the DAC, it would seem, but maybe signal from an external DAC could be sent in on the mic stage.

Perhaps I'm just under the illusion that a headphone amp that costs more than an O2 is going to sound better than an O2. Do all these non-ic, fully balanced amps with huge power supply toroids and crazy volume control arrangements really not sound any better? It's possible, look at how well the Topping DAC tests against the high dollar set.

 

[Blumlein 88]

snippage............

Do all these non-ic, fully balanced amps with huge power supply toroids and crazy volume control arrangements really not sound any better? It's possible, look at how well the Topping DAC tests against the high dollar set.

Of all the things, a headphone amp is not a heavy duty application. Toroids and huge supply not needed. Not only do I think op-amp or chip based designs are able to supply everything a headphone needs, I am pretty sure they generally could do so with better fidelity. Opamps can be fully balanced as well btw.

Did I miss where you stated what headphones you'll be using?

 

[Jorj]

snip....

Did I miss where you stated what headphones you'll be using?

Nope, I did not say. I really did not want that to be a factor. I just want a nice neutral sound, and being as it is purely an amp, enough power to drive any cans I care to don.

The reference to huge bits of iron in the PS was just for color, but it did elicit a very interesting statement from you. You stated

Not only do I think op-amp or chip based designs are able to supply everything a headphone needs, I am pretty sure they generally could do so with better fidelity.

Now we're getting somewhere!
If that is the case, then the whole 'halo' or 'statement' headphone amp market is just emperor's clothes, and most everything north of the O2 is wasted money. Does that sound about right, or are there some gains to be made, still using IC type designs, that would improve the sound measurably?

 

[Jorj]

Honestly, I keep glancing back over my shoulder looking for schiitheads to run around the corner with pitchforks and torches hollering 'Plankton! Burn the plankton atheist!'

 

[amirm]

You are safe here. We have not had their army infiltrate our forum yet.

 

[Jorj]

I guess we need an objective standard for how good is good enough for headphone amps. @amirm , you've done a really fine and admirable job of explaining that while certain DACs are measurably better (and showing the measurements), I don't have clarity on how good an amp should sound before it's just being silly.

 

[Blumlein 88]

Nope, I did not say. I really did not want that to be a factor. I just want a nice neutral sound, and being as it is purely an amp, enough power to drive any cans I care to don.

The reference to huge bits of iron in the PS was just for color, but it did elicit a very interesting statement from you. You stated Now we're getting somewhere!
If that is the case, then the whole 'halo' or 'statement' headphone amp market is just emperor's clothes, and most everything north of the O2 is wasted money. Does that sound about right, or are there some gains to be made, still using IC type designs, that would improve the sound measurably?

Depends upon your headphone. Like Planars. They'll need a little more behind them to play well. Still within opamp capabilities. So for some devices more than an O2 may not be a waste. For many things you'll get little for your money performance wise. You might need less than an ohm output impedance and output like 2000 or 3000 milliwatts. Still that might cost more than an O2, but shouldn't be a thousand dollars or more.

So something like the Pass Labs HP1. Has an ohm output impedance, and 3500 milliwatt output. Made for Audeze. Uses Jfet circuitry instead of op amps. Beautiful piece of gear, and probably performs exceptionally well. At $3500 it should. Getting that performance should be possible for much less money.

Again, much of the difficulty in finding what you want is there simply is no market for it. Too easy to include a DAC with a good headphone out. Those are overwhelmingly what you see. While it may seem a waste to have the DAC you don't need, for companies making them it might be just as expensive without it to have as a separate product. So you have fewer choices here. But keep looking someone probably has one.

 

[Jorj]

snip..

So something like the Pass Labs HP1. Has an ohm output impedance, and 3500 milliwatt output. Made for Audeze. Uses Jfet circuitry instead of op amps. Beautiful piece of gear, and probably performs exceptionally well. At $3500 it should. Getting that performance should be possible for much less money.

..snip.

Sure, for $3.5K, it ought to sound good. But JFET for a HP amp seems silly. No need for that much power handling, and does it really sound better than an O2 with headphones?

And I agree, there is surely a superior hybrid out there that fills the bill, and I'd take it as long as I can bypass the DAC when I want and feel comfortable that the amp stage is well designed. Not looking to spend a bunch, just want a flexible feature set in a device that tests well and has sufficient power. I think it's a reasonable ask.

 

[Sylafari]

Honestly, I keep glancing back over my shoulder looking for schiitheads to run around the corner with pitchforks and torches hollering 'Plankton! Burn the plankton atheist!'

Just being a bit objective here (I own a Schiit DAC but I'm not a Schiit shill I swear :O ) but aren't the amplifiers and DACs from Schiit separate in that the amplifiers are by Jason Stoddard and the DACs are by Mike Moffat meaning that although their DACs based on measurements aren't what they are cut out to be that the amplifiers are a completely separate and could possibly be good? Just a thought.

As for what you said earlier about how it should be possible to get an amplifier with all those features. Wouldn't it be better for the money to get a $300 unbalanced headphone amplifier where more money can be spent on the amplifier to make it sound good than towards an amplifier that is balanced where you have to spend more money to make it balanced and sound good. Also correct me if I'm wrong, but is there any objective truth to balanced being the end all be all (unbalanced can sound just as good)? That and balanced cables and headphones that are balanced usually cost a lot more too, so if I was trying to best use my money (which it seems like what one does when looking for a $300 headphone amp) it be better to go for a unbalanced stereo headphone amplifier. Just my opinion!

 

[SpeedyRodent]

I might be missing something here, but Jorj, you stated in the original post you current own a JDS Labs Element? The Element is likely better than most of the amplifiers recommended so far in terms of value for the money. It outputs 1.5w into 32ohms and ~250mw into 300ohms along with respectable measurements. This amp is enough to drive most headphones including Sennheiser hd600/650/6xx and current production planars.

I don't want to sidetrack this thread too much. It seems that there is a lot of mention of the O2 headphone amplifier. Imo, this amp is good if you can use it within the limitations. In the default configuration of 2.5x for low gain, the input/gain stage is very easy to clip with sources above 2v. Most DAC's I have owned have a output voltage between 2 to 2.5v so it was hit and miss if it played well with the o2. I don't believe the element suffers from the same limitation so I do classify it as a upgrade from the O2.

 

[Jorj]

@SpeedyRodent Yes, you are right on the money, I have an Element. That is on my bedstand, and I want another one with more connections and flexibility to sit on my desk. I also think the Element is an upgrade to the O2. If you feel (perhaps correctly) that no headphone amp can exceed the Element, then that is an opinion I would value. OTOH, if there is some merit to spending up to $300 on an amp that has measurably better performance, with the features I mentioned, then I'd be happy to hear about it.

 

[amirm]

I guess we need an objective standard for how good is good enough for headphone amps. @amirm , you've done a really fine and admirable job of explaining that while certain DACs are measurably better (and showing the measurements), I don't have clarity on how good an amp should sound before it's just being silly.

I have a bunch of headphone amps yet to test. Once I do that, I think some "truth" will pop out of that.

For now, I am a fan of plenty of power and headroom for inefficient headphones like my Sennheisers.

 

[SpeedyRodent]

@SpeedyRodent Yes, you are right on the money, I have an Element. That is on my bedstand, and I want another one with more connections and flexibility to sit on my desk. I also think the Element is an upgrade to the O2. If you feel (perhaps correctly) that no headphone amp can exceed the Element, then that is an opinion I would value. OTOH, if there is some merit to spending up to $300 on an amp that has measurably better performance, with the features I mentioned, then I'd be happy to hear about it.

Nothing wrong with wanting another headphone amp with additional features. Just trying to understand the situation. I have multiple headphone amps myself.

I don't know if I would go far as saying no headphone amp can exceed the Element. Having previously owned one, I do feel it is a good value purchase. Hopefully @amirm will identify some worthy budget recommendations.

Admittedly I have previously owned more than one of the "statement" amps mentioned on the first page. Still have the Bryston BHA-1. A few years ago, I did get a chance to compare various solid state amps I owned including the Element and my self built "The Wire". Just some food for thought. With the output matched, it was very difficult identify any audible differences. Even with the sennheiser HD800, I was not able to tell the amps apart. Of course my comparison was very unscientific and out of self interest. So I would not say it is conclusive of anything aside from that I could not identify the difference between decently built solid state amps in a sighted test.

I will throw this one out there too. The Schiit Jotunheim retails for $399US, is fully balanced and has multiple inputs/outputs. I know, I know. It is a Schiit. lol.

 

[Jorj]

I really like the concept of The Wire, but have no time or patience for soldering any more. Basically, if someone were to rejigger that design, add the option of balanced operation, with a lovely big Alps knob and even better, a small display to show input selection and level, I'd be a happy camper. And if mass produced, it should not cost more than $300.

My moratorium on Schiit will remain until someone puts up numbers. After seeing the test results on the Modi, plus some not-enjoyable interactions with their staff, I think I'll leave off their stuff until the data is in. They may be popular, made-in-the-USA and seem a good value, but that whole crappy design and "measurements can't tell the story of our magic" attitude has me looking askance at them.