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Headphone Amp/DAC purchase advice requested ($5000? budget)

Zithras

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I need to buy a new (for me) high-end headphone desktop amp and DAC. What's the best I can get quality-wise? Any advice is appreciated. Here is what I'm looking for:

Requirements:
Type: Non-tube
Input: At least 1 USB input (USB-C preferred)
Outputs: at least 1 balanced output
Components: Amp, DAC, (power supply if needed?)
Budget: Up to $5000 (preferable), up to $10000 if there's a large difference in audio quality


Nice to have:
Balanced XLR headphone output (3pin)
Multiple input sources
Gain switch/multiple gain settings
crossfeed (probably not happening)
Works well with current go-to headphones: balanced Sennheiser 800, also have 600/650

Potential brands (very tentative, no idea really):Benchmark(HPA4/DAC3?)/RME(ADI-2 FSv2)/Topping(D90+A70Pro)/SMSL/Schitt/Eversolo/Sabaj?
Music type: anything really (wide variety, classical/rock/pop/etc), but not much rap/country
Preferred sound: Sennheiser > Grado
Prefer to buy new over used
Right now the best choice seems to be the Benchmark or the Topping combo, with the Topping seeming to offer (near?) equivalent quality for half the price?


More detail:

Background
Almost all of my audio is played via digital files from a computer. I listen to almost everything, from classical to rock to pop (although not much rap or country), and prefer the classic Sennheiser sound and padded headphone comfort over Grado. Waaay back in 2010, after much research, I bought a Headroom Ultra Desktop Amp, DAC, and Power supply (and eventually a pair of Sennheiser HD800 headphones with a balanced Cardas XLR cable). This was, at the time, pretty much state-of-the-art and the one of the best non-tube headphone amp/DACs available, and has been enjoyable ever since.

Issues
Recently, I upgraded to a Windows 11 computer, and the HeadRoom 3stack is showing its age, and needs updating. The company hasn't been in business for over a decade, and the original drivers and software was designed for Windows XP(remember that...)/Windows 7. For a 15-year-old design, the audio quality, when it all works, is still remarkably good. However, it's definitely time for a new audio stack...the main issue is hardware and software combability with modern Windows machines is *really* bad after 15 years. The DAC essentially accepts 3 main inputs: USB, Coax, and optical, all in raw PCM. My motherboard's optical-out audio is awful. The coax would be fine, but almost no modern computer motherboard has a non-optical coax audio out. The USB input...kind of works. USB was fairly new at the time, and was added as an afterthought. The AMP accepts 192KHz signals over coax, but only 44.1KhZ over USB, on drivers that haven't been updated since Windows XP. That's what I'm currently using with Windows 11, but...this is not ideal. The stack is solid, but so dated that for hardware compatibility, if nothing else, it's time for an upgrade to something with good USB support.

What I want
I'm looking for, at a minimum, a new headphone amp+DAC or combo unit. If it would improve audio quality, I wouldn't mind getting a dedicated power supply unit, although these don't really seem to be as necessary these days. My primary audio source is PC, so a USB input is a must. Preferably USB-C 3.0 for broad, lasting compatibility, but I can always adapter through any USB as necessary, since they're all cross-compatible. Other inputs add versatility and are useful, but not required. I would also love it if it had balanced 3pin XLR outputs (so I can use my Cardas cabled Sennheisers without recabling). Crossfeed would be a bonus, but I don't think any modern amps have this. I don't want a tube amp please, I've never messed with tubes before, and my main audio source for hopefully the next decade isn't the place to start experimenting. I haven't looked much at the high-end headphone audio scene for over a decade now, and looking around, it seems a much bigger place than before, with many new players I've never heard of offering a much wider variety of products (15 years ago, there were just a few manufacturers of high-end audio gear), and it's sometimes very difficult to distinguish what's worth it from what's thrown together and sold cheaply from overseas.

Budget ($5k or less ideal, $10k max):
What is the best AMP/DAC/(power supply) combo I can put together today (non-tube, USB input, etc.) for about $5000? Less pricey for equivalnt quality is always better, and since I don't want a tube amp, if I don't need to spend this much, great! I can, if necessary, go up to $10,000, but I'm not sure my old ears will hear much difference between systems once we hit the $1000-$2000 range. I don't need a $10000 amp just for the name.

What I've looked at so far:
I've heard a few names tossed around for possibilities which seem well-regarded:
Benchmark - The HPA4/DAC3 combo seems extremely well-regarded.
Topping: D90 III Sabre DAC+A70Pro amp or DX7+Pro combo Amp/DAC (the manufacturer seems well regarded, but there seem to be lots of similar product offerings, the Sabre/A70 combo seem to be more well-matched than the combo unit, but not sure?),
RME - the ADI-2 FSv2 seems pretty good, but is a bit older, and doesn't have as many reviews
SMSL Amp+DAC (I've seen some good reviews, but there seem to be lots of similar product offerings, and they're China-based, and I don't know which of the 9999 things they make are great? Maybe the SU-10 or VMV D1se2 DAC and the P2 amp? But the amp doesn't do as well for balanced headphones?)
Schiit - most of the Schitt stacks seem to be more midrange than high-end, but they seem well-regarded? (The Schiit Midgard is mentioned alot, but I'd need a DAC as well...)
Eversolo Z8 (very fancy display, cheaper than the above...not sure if the Z8 is on the same level as Topping and SMSL though? There's also the A8, but that's not really headphone-focused?),
Sabaj A20d (the cheapest on this list but seems like it has good quality?)
Honestly, though, I'm completely unfamiliar with the current audio scene, and don't know who makes the most highly-regarded product in terms of audio clarity/quality.
Right now the best choice seems to be the Benchmark or the Topping combo, with the Topping seeming to offer (near?) equivalent quality for half the price?


Thanks for reading through this long post, and for all the advice and help! (crossposted to a couple forums for visibility)
 
Get the RME ADI-2 DAC FS/ADI-2 Pro FS R BE/ADI-2/4 Pro SE, and give the rest to charity.
 
Thanks for the inital suggestions: anyone else who has thoughts or ideas please feel free to chime in (whether in agreement or criticism)! More information is always useful.

Based on replies on two threads and more reading, looks like the best options are:

1)Topping A70Pro amp and D90 III Sabre DAC - this still seems like the best option. One reviewer in particular said it subjectively sounded a bit flat, but the technical analysis data from these seems to be amazing, and it seems to be able to run both high and low-impedance headphones with equal ease. (Back XLR outputs are not ideal, but that's minor). It seems to have a good user interface, wide compatibility in both hardware inputs/outputs and digital formats, and good value for money. The only thing that concerns me is a potential lack of warranty/support due to being China-based and a relatively new manufacturer compared to Schitt. The 1 year Topping warranty vs. the 5 year Schitt warranty is also a bit worrying.

2) Schitt audio (Yay for made in the USA products! I know I'm a terrible person to look sidewise at Topping for being based in China, but with so many awful cheap electronics products from China flooding Amazon and major retailers, I always look twice at any electronics that are Chinese-based these days; there's some great products coming out of there, but also a flood of yikes that's hard to separate out! The only reason Topping is 'topping' my list right now is the consistently amazing product reviews...). Anyway, something new to add to my list. Yggdrasil+Mjolnir seem like a potentially great combo, and the device in general, unlike the RME, seems to be made around balanced headphone use. The downside here is that the current Yggdrasil reviews that are available seem to come to completely different conclusions with similar data. I know the users on here tend not to like their gear, but it seems more of a 'this is overpriced' rather than a 'this is terrible', which kinda seems to be my conclusion as well. The output options on the Topping are definitely more comprehensive compared to the Mjolnir, although I do like Schitt's monoblock look. I couldn't really find much to recommend it over the Topping though, other than not being made in China, while Topping seems like it has a better user interface, equivalent performance, increased input/output versatility, and is able to take advantage of being mass-produced instead of handmade, reducing the total unit cost. Overall, I couldn't really find anything that says, 'oh the Schitt is better because X', so would probably go with the option with increased versatility, ease of use, and lower cost (Topping). I see no problems with Schitt, it just doesn't seem to have anything that makes me go 'wow, I'd rather get that instead for twice the price!' Both seem to be excellent solutions, but the main advantage Schitt seems to have is in design asthetics, not audio quality. I wish I could find a store around here that would let me try both, but that seems unlikely.

It also looks like, with either of these, I'd have to get the Sennheiser's recabled, since the cable I have on them right now is a 3x mono 3pin XLR male end, and both of these amps expect balanced headphones with female XLR terminations. Unfortunate, but not unexpected. The headroom outputs were weird.

Other suggested options:
3) RME-ADI 2/4 Pro SE - Currently dropped to third place in favor of Schitt. I like the idea of an all-in-one solution, however, the RME seems a bit odd in the way it splits the balanced outputs independently. I would be using the balanced XLR outputs, (which are in the back again), and I'm not sure how the amp portion (volume dial) would interact with the XLR line outputs? The amp itself, from reviews, also seems to be more centered around unbalanced use. Still a solid choice, just not sure it's better than the Topping.

4)ifi Pro iDSD or Zen DAC Signature V2+Zen CAN Signature 6XX amp - I think I prefer the other options listed above. I just wasn't too thrilled with what ifi had to offer. The 2set seems to have much more limited connection options in a much more compact format, with the amp and dac connected via a 4mm audio cable rather than an XLR interconnect. In theory, this is fine, in practice it seems a bit awkward. The integrated Amp/DAC unit doesn't have this issue, and seems a better choice than the individual amp/dac option, but I also don't see too much to recommend it over the Topping other than the cost. It does seem like a decent unit, but most reviews I saw seem to show it having 'less perfect' audio reproduction when compared with the RME/Topping. I.e. everyone recommends it as 'fine', but it doesn't really seem to 'stand out' with exceptional quality. Looking at their other products, there's some really bad offerings out there, especially on their lower end products. Although this set in particular seems fine, the company itself just doesn't seem to be as solid as Topping. Plus, honestly, I don't really like the way it looks. Which, okay, really shouldn't matter, but...
 
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I'd honestly just go with anything from the RME ADI-2 line and call it a day. It has all the features you'd need (crossfeed included), with exceptional support. Topping and Schiit are fine for what they are, but have had their fair share of issues when it comes to support. Haven't seen much on RME's side apart from dealers causing issues on their behalf.

Alternatively consider the JDS Element IV. It's measures well and has 10 band parametric EQ (3-5 more than the ADI-2 line depending on if you want to count their shelf filters).

When it comes to DACs, you're not going to discover much in terms of how different they're going to sound, especially if they're using reconstruction filters that are flat up to 20khz. If you can hear above that (highly unlikely but hell it's possible) then sure I guess you can pick and choose what you like.

As for amps, mostly the same deal unless your unit has high impedance and your headphone has a non-flat impedance curve. It'll cause your headphone to have a boosted response in its resonant frequency (for the HD800 it's the bass and upper treble), but I don't know of any solid state amp/DAC combo unit that would do this off the top of my head.
 
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I need to buy a new (for me) high-end headphone desktop amp and DAC. What's the best I can get quality-wise? Any advice is appreciated. Here is what I'm looking for:
For a DAC maybe the Topping D90 III Discrete, check this to learn how to use the EQ.

For headphone amplifier maybe a MOSFET model like the Cayin iHA-8.

You can have crossfeed with https://sourceforge.net/projects/equalizerapo/ + https://sourceforge.net/projects/peace-equalizer-apo-extension/
https://sourceforge.net/p/peace-equalizer-apo-extension/discussion/general/thread/1e7f01ea32/

BTW, some Windows tweaks/stuff at
https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8820694#p8820694
 
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Thanks for the EQ setup, I've never really looked into doing it properly, and really need to. The crossfeed is definitely just a 'nice to have' I'm just used to it by now. I probably shouldn't use it, but ehhh....
 
I was in same boat as you. Searching DAC for Sennheiser hd 820 and 650. My budget was in little less range ,aprox 1000€ .But in the end i understand that i must buy RME Adi 2/4 pro se because thats the only device which didnt cause me buyer remorse feeling .And i tried Fii0,Topping and all kind of chinese schiit,okey the last one is USA shit.
 
Not sure why this thread does not receive adequate replies. So many similar questions?
Most likely the answers that active forum members here can provide are obvious.

Despite being a new member here, I've been an audio enthusiast and speaker builder for over 30 years. I think I can make some suggestion..

These days solid-state electronics, DACs and headphone amplifiers, unless poorly designed, are audibly transparent and indistinguishable.

You really do NOT have to spend $5,000 to attain the state of the art.

The reason why the RME ADI-2 line was recommended here is for its unique combination of features. You may want to take time and read its user manual. You will see why there are serious fans.

I do not mean the RME is the single best DAC/Amp combo. There are so many options these days. But TBH if I have to keep only one DAC/Amp in my collection, it would be the RME..
 
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$5-10k is way too much to spend on this stuff, but you have solid options on the table.

RME is a good option, the topping stuff will be great too.

All of these options measure transparent, ignore reviews that talk about the color of 100% clear glass. :)

In the spirit of not buying unnecessary stuff, maybe you could a more recent USB isolator or USB -> coaxial D2D adapter and keep using your existing DAC that you like?
 
Why do you need to have balanced output?

Headphones are inherently differential receivers. There is thus no difference if the negative terminal receives a negative voltage or not as long as the voltage across the driver is identical. Any noise picked up by the cable is canceled at the driver. The only benefit is lowered crosstalk, but that is in the cable and connector not drive mode.

The Benchmark HPA4 is single-ended. The below is quoted from their website (Link).

The Myth of "Unbalanced" Headphones​

This discussion would not be complete without mentioning that there is no such thing as an unbalanced headphone transducer (with the possible exception of DC-biased electrostatic headphones such as those manufactured by Stax).

Headphone transducers respond to the voltage difference between the two wires that feed them. They have perfect rejection of common-mode interference because there is no path to ground or to any other conductor. In other words, there is no path for ground loops.

Headphone transducers are electrically isolated from everything other than the two wires that feed them. It doesn't matter if both conductors are driven differentially or if only one conductor is driven. The headphone transducer will reject common-mode noise.

There are some advantages to using separate wires to feed the left and right transducers, and there are some advantages to using XLR connectors instead of TRS headphone jacks, but none of these have anything to do with balanced vs. unbalanced drive. Balanced drive can provide twice the audio voltage for a given power supply voltage. XLR connectors often provide better electrical connections than TRS jacks. A separate return pin for the left and right channels can reduce crosstalk but channel separation is not really a concern with headphone listening.

In the context of this paper it is important to understand that headphone transducers always behave like perfect balanced inputs. It doesn't matter how they are driven. Headphone transducers provide perfect rejection of common-mode noise because they only have wires. The current flowing through these wires will be equal and opposite because there is no other path for the electrons to flow.
 
Other suggested options:
3) RME-ADI 2/4 Pro SE - Currently dropped to third place in favor of Schitt. I like the idea of an all-in-one solution, however, the RME seems a bit odd in the way it splits the balanced outputs independently. I would be using the balanced XLR outputs, (which are in the back again), and I'm not sure how the amp portion (volume dial) would interact with the XLR line outputs? The amp itself, from reviews, also seems to be more centered around unbalanced use. Still a solid choice, just not sure it's better than the Topping.

I am not sure you understand how the RME ADI-2 products work. The Pro SE model does have a 4.4mm balanced headphone out on the front panel. And what do you mean by "more centered around unbalanced use"? I believe the review you refer to is about the DAC FS model which has only unbalanced headphone outs.

In any case, I totally agree to JIW's point above. You do not need to choose the Pro model if your use case is just DAC and headphone amp. There's nothing amiss with unbalanced HP out if the output power is enough, which is your case.
 
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If your budget extends $1000-2000, the RME ADI-2 DAC FS and its siblings are the only thing I feel are worth that price, due to their rich feature set. Unless you have very specific ideas about how the box should look or something, there is no sensible reason to spend that much money on no-frills solid state headphone equipment besides conspicuous consumption and being the coolest kid at the audiophile meetup. Building a capable headphone amp requires no heavy iron, exotic parts or materials, etc etc, just pretty standard low-cost commodity parts and smart engineering.

Otherwise, just get JDS Labs Element or Atom stack or something like that. JDS are stand-up guys and worth supporting.

Balanced headphone outs, especially on desktop equipment, are a dumb marketing gimmick and there is zero need for them with the HD600s or HD800s or 99% of the headphones out there. Balanced interconnect between DAC/amp/other equipment, on the other hand, may be worthwhile.
 
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Since your existing setup has SPDIF input its compatibility should be everlasting. If I were in your situation I think I'd buy one of the decent USB to SPDIF boxes reviewed on this site and save my 10 grand for something else.
 
I definitely think my initial budget was (thankfully) way too high.

I think the reason there are so few replies was I thought going into this that I'd need $5000-$10000 to get a top-end system still, and didn't see too many other threads out there asking for advice in that price range. It's now pretty obvious that's because Topping and RME both do everything I need at a price point that's much lower, and performance that (to me at least) would be indistinguishable from more expensive stacks (Benchmark, for example). The warranty and support is a bit more of a worry, but even if something has a 1 year warranty instead of a 5 year, if it's 5 times cheaper, does it really matter? Thanks for all the advice, and for pointing me along to something more suitable in both price and features! One thing I do like about the RME is the built-in equalization option, but since I'm going to be using a PC as a source, adding a filter in externally shouldn't really be an issue either way.

I've tried a few USB to SPDIF boxes as well with my current setup, and am currently using a cheap Douk Audio box (U2 Pro) I picked up off Amazon, but am very unhappy with it, as it has some major problems (randomly needs to be power cycled, stuttering, drops outputs, weird drivers and compatibility, etc. - it works fine when it works, but I have to unplug it for 30 seconds to power cycle at least once a day after it randomly mutes itself). There's very limited 'super-cheap' options when it comes to USB to (non-optical) coax right now, and the coax optical on my current system has its own hardware issues that are best avoided. Overall, I think it's just time to replace the decade+ old stack (when I last looked into audio products over a decade ago it was a very different environment). I'm not going to throw out the Headroom Ultra stack, but there's better products available now.

That being said, no reason at all to spend $5-10k when I can get it all done with RME or Topping for under 2 and save some money. Thanks for pointing me in the right direction, always nice when something comes in well under budget!
 
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I’d go with the Topping 90 series stack and some Dan Clark cans with that budget. I have the Aeon 2 open and closed and the Topping D70/THX AAA Massdrop amp and it’s been super “hifi.” No EQ needed, and you’d have room in your budget for something like the stealth.

Of course, my money no object solid state amp is the Ray Samuels Apache.
 
I think I can add one more thing. I also currently own the HD 800 S and once had the HD 650 as well.

These classic Sennheiser cans have very smooth frequency response, meaning you can EQ them easily with simpler filters.

However, their relatively high nonlinear distortion in the bass range is definitely audible, especially when compared to modern planar-magnetic headphones. And nonlinear distortion cannot be remedied with EQ'ing.

You may want to at least try the super inexpensive Hifiman HE400SE. Its treble is somewhat uneven, but once EQ'ed properly, its full-bodied sound, in particular, its oh-so clean bass will be appreciated. Simply no contest. Dynamic-driver headphones cannot mimic such clean bass.
 
I don't know if you've already made your purchases, but if you have $10k to spend, you should consider a Smyth A16 Realiser. The A16 will enable you to duplicate the sound of speakers over headphones, and recreate up to 24 channel Atmos, DTS-X, and Auro 3D also over phones. The HD 800 is the preferred headphone to use with it, and the A16 provides a state of the art EQ for them by using in ear measuring mics to adjust their FR curve. I have an A16 and have made a 24 channel in studio measurement of Dutch and Dutch 8C speakers which I now use daily to listen to movies and 2 channel music, and it sounds fantastic. There is also a provider (3D SoundShop) who offers pre recorded 24 channel studio measurements for the A16 which also sound fantastic.

In my setup, I send the spdif binaural output of the Realiser to a good Dac (Octo Dac 8 Pro, but any decent 2 channel dac costing around $100 would work as well) and from there to a Topping A70 Pro amp (you are spot on in your assessment of that headphone amp! It's terrific and has nearly unlimited power to drive HD 800's).


Personally I think just upgrading the electronics of your set up will just result in some very slight improvements, and you could easily find a really good DAC Amp for l.t. $300 to do that as well as it can be done. But adding the A16 to your playback chain is a whole different matter which will provide the most dramatic improvement imaginable, and I don't make that claim lightly. It will literally allow you to capture state of the art stereo and home theater set-ups which will be indistinguishable from real speakers playing in a real room, something completely beyond the capabilities of any ordinary headphone system. It's the single best way to upgrade a headphone system with the money you seem willing to spend, and will literally give you a 24 channel system capable to replicating virtually any speaker system and/or home theater. It's actually worth that kind of spend. Far more so than a $10k headphone amp.
 
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