(Help) Audio interface vs DAC/amp dilemma (for studio monitors, interface i/o and hphones)

[NecroRAM]

Just ordered Focal Clear OGs.

Current setup:
PC USB->Scarlett 4i4->balanced line outs to Eris E5s, and its crappy SE amp out to the headphones.

Looking to overhaul my setup. Was recommended the Motu M4 as an all-around solution, but I decided I wanna go the amp route in the end.

Considering these units (budget around 5-600$ max, but ideally ~400$):
Topping DX15 II
Hifiman EF499
Schiit Jotunheim
Monoprice Monolith

Requirements: balanced inputs and outputs so I can either use it as the main source and send to my interface or vice versa. Also a balanced headphone output of some sort.

Speaking of which, which setup is more correct? PC->amp (to hp)->interface or PC->interface->amp (to hp)? Ive come to find that I rarely use the interface for recording through the inst inputs but rather for monitoring my guitar modeler and e-drums through the line ins in the back (modeler has a separate USB connection for audio recording). So part of me wants to ditch the interface entirely, but on the other hand, I'll be losing the monitoring capability and the expanded i/o of it.

ALSO, very important, I do need separate volume controls for the mains out and the hp, Idk if any of the listed amps have it (through software/UI or otherwise). This is in case I connect my monitors to the amp (most likely since it should have a better DAC and amp than even the Motu?) and only use the Motu for instrument monitoring and I/O if ever needed.

Another issue Im predicting is I would still need a separate USB connection to the PC to send the audio from the interface since amps dont send audio upstream, right?
One wonders why arent theyre combo DAC/amp/interfaces that dont compromise on any facet.

Out of these im partial towards the Schiit or EF499.

tl;dr: which of these amps to pick for a setup that should also accommodate monitor speakers and an audio interface (I want fully balanced)

 

[jkim]

If I were you, I would get an audio interface with an optical out and the Topping DX5 II.

Connect the interface's optical out to the DX5 II, and connect your monitor to the DX5 II's balanced output.

The DX5 II has separate volume memory for each output (each HP output & line out)---it has more advanced features, too, than other DAC/HP amp devices.

I would get the Topping Pro E2x2 OTG and Topping DX5 II.

EDIT. In fact, just try the Topping Pro E2x2 OTG first. It can be an all-in-one solution for you. It has simply the best headphone output of all budget audio interfaces. Its DAC and ADC quality is very nice, too. See my measurements.

If you absolutely need 4x4, then the Topping Pro E4x4 Pre can be a solution---unfortunately, it does not support digital output, though, which is a rare feature these days.

 

[AnalogSteph]

1. Is that a 1st, 2nd or 3rd gen 4i4? The 1st-gen models still had some rough edges, the newer ones I would consider basically fine.
2. Do you really want to be dumping 4-5-600$ into a fancy DAC-amp when you're plodding along with 200$/pair speakers? I mean, the E5s are fine (and arguably more than fine) for what they are, but they're still entry-level 5" monitors with some issues like subpar RF shielding. There may be more to be gained by spicing up an interface headphone out with a decent $100-140 class headphone amp (any of the usual suspects should do for driving the Clears well) and scouring the used market for some decent monitor upgrade options instead.

 

[NecroRAM]

1. Is that a 1st, 2nd or 3rd gen 4i4? The 1st-gen models still had some rough edges, the newer ones I would consider basically fine.
2. Do you really want to be dumping 4-5-600$ into a fancy DAC-amp when you're plodding along with 200$/pair speakers? I mean, the E5s are fine (and arguably more than fine) for what they are, but they're still entry-level 5" monitors with some issues like subpar RF shielding. There may be more to be gained by spicing up an interface headphone out with a decent $100-140 class headphone amp (any of the usual suspects should do for driving the Clears well) and scouring the used market for some decent monitor upgrade options instead.

3rd gen, its hp amp is reportedly ass, Motu's is much better, but Im set on also getting a dedicated amp for it.

Planning to replace the E5s with Genelecs or Focals, probably still 5" or 6.5", I dont think my desk would fit 8"s. I run a flattening EQ profile specifically made for the E5s through Equalizer APO, sounds much better than stock.
Since making this post Ive also changed minds and now just want a minimalistic hp standalone amp (eg Topping A50 III) to connect to the lineouts of my current or future interface (Motu). Either that or just a small dac amp, like the Element 4 or Fiio K11.

What would you rec for the smallest size without a sound quality compromise? I think the A50 III is a good pick. Also, do I get a 400$ worth of advantage with the Element 4 over the A50 or the K11? And finally, is it detrimental to run it off the Motu M4's dac? Its a good dac according to tests.

 

[jkim]

Comparing the 3rd gen Scarlett to the Motu M4, I do not think you will experience any noticeable sound quality improvement in terms of DAC performance. The Scarlett has a measurably higher noise floor which is still audibly no problem. Their ADC performance is fine for their class.

IMO, as @AnalogSteph suggested, you just need a headphone amplifier. Decide whether you need a passthrough or a preamp function or no analog out.

There are basically too many options. We usually recommend a setup that does not add any unnecessary cost.

 

[NecroRAM]

Comparing the 3rd gen Scarlett to the Motu M4, I do not think you will experience any noticeable sound quality improvement in terms of DAC performance. The Scarlett has a measurably higher noise floor which is still audibly no problem. Their ADC performance is fine for their class.

IMO, as @AnalogSteph suggested, you just need a headphone amplifier. Decide whether you need a passthrough or a preamp function or no analog out.

There are basically too many options. We usually recommend a setup that does not add any unnecessary cost.

The Motu has a better hp amp so at first I was considering it as an all-around solution but then decided to go for an amp.
I also thought about getting a combo with extensive i/o at first for all kinds of possible setups (like running the line outs from the interface to the amp or vice versa, or having it power my speakers, etc), but now I think I just need a minimal amp or a combo. Now the question is, should I get a full stack/combo, or just an amp and run the balanced line outs from the interface to it.

Currently considering the Element 4, A50/D50 stack or the K11. I dont need i/o on the back (except of course if its a stack) or balanced hp output as I figured it doesnt give any advantage esp for the headphones I will be running (Focal Clear OG).

Right now I can get the A50 for ~143$ on Shenzhenaudio after their 10$ sale coupon and an additional 10% discount code they gave me.
I think I'll also delay the audio interface upgrade until later.

 

[jkim]

The Motu has a better hp amp so at first I was considering it as an all-around solution but then decided to go for an amp.

The Motu M4's hp amp can supply only 0.9 Vrms (25 mW) into 32 Ohms. Although its THD+N is lower than the Focusrite's hp amp, such output power is what cheap dongles (< $10) can do these days. Sure, it may be adequate for the Focal Clears (can still be weak if you apply some preamp cut in EQ), but will be definitely too weak for somewhat insensitive headphones if you want to try them later on.

In my view, a true all-in-one solution that can cover a wide variety of headphones is the Topping Pro series audio interface. That is why I recommended it---see here.

But in your case, you already have an audio interface that can serve as a DAC. So, adding just an external hp amp can be a solution.

I also thought about getting a combo with extensive i/o at first for all kinds of possible setups (like running the line outs from the interface to the amp or vice versa, or having it power my speakers, etc), but now I think I just need a minimal amp or a combo. Now the question is, should I get a full stack/combo, or just an amp and run the balanced line outs from the interface to it.

Currently considering the Element 4, A50/D50 stack or the K11. I dont need i/o on the back (except of course if its a stack) or balanced hp output as I figured it doesnt give any advantage esp for the headphones I will be running (Focal Clear OG).

Right now I can get the A50 for ~143$ on Shenzhenaudio after their 10$ sale coupon and an additional 10% discount code they gave me.
I think I'll also delay the audio interface upgrade until later.

The Topping A50 III is an excellent hp amp. It doesn't support a passthrough or preamp function, though. You will need to utilize both sets of your interface's line-outs. Fortunately, your Focusrite's Line Outputs 3 & 4 are at fixed level, so they can feed the hp amp. This way you won't have to adjust both devices' volume controls each time you switch b/w monitors and headphones. You will use the interface's volume control for the monitors (connected to Line Outs 1 & 2) and the hp amp's volume control for the headphones (connected to Line Outs 3 & 4).

The Topping L50 (find measurements here) is also an outstanding little hp amplifier. It has a passthrough---not necessary in your case, though.

In case you consider a DAC/HP combo device, note that there's no way to connect it directly to an audio interface, unless it has analog preamp inputs (very rare & expensive) or the audio interface has a digital output (also rare these days).

 

[NecroRAM]

The Motu M4's hp amp can supply only 0.9 Vrms (24 mW) into 32 Ohms. Although its THD+N is lower than the Focusrite's hp amp, such output power is just what cheap dongles (< $10) can do these days. Sure, it may be adequate for the Focal Clears, but will be definitely too weak for somewhat insensitive headphones if you try them later on.

In my view, a true all-in-one solution that can cover a wide variety of headphones is the Topping Pro series audio interface. That is why I recommended it---see here.

But in your case, you already have an audio interface that can serve as a DAC. So, adding just an external hp amp can be a solution.


The A50 III is an outstanding hp amp. It doesn't support a passthrough or preamp function, though. You will need to utilize both sets of your interface's line-outs. Fortunately, the Focusrite's Line Outputs 3 & 4 are at fixed level, so they can feed the hp amp. So, you will use the interface's volume control for the monitors (connected to Line Outs 1 & 2) and the hp amp's volume control for the headphones (connected to Line Outs 3 & 4).

I didnt get the part about having to utilize both sets of line outs at first, but have since done some reading before replying. Yeah thats pretty much what I was planning to do.
I just might also get the D50 dac down the line too if only to clean up my desk of cable clutter. Do you see any conflict happening between the Focusrite and Topping softwares?
Also, whats the best way of powering the D50? I see that it has separate data and power type C ports AND a DC plug too. Also that they sell a linear power supply for it as well, do you see a point in buying it? I have heard that linear PSUs can improve the sound, though it was just that one guy's experience with running the Fiio K7 through K9's amp and he said it sounded much better and attributed it to the better PSU. At that point am I better off just getting the K9? Its huge tho, at least separate units give me the flexibility to position them more conveniently like hiding the PSU under the desk or something.

 

[jkim]

I didnt get the part about having to utilize both sets of line outs at first, but have since done some reading before replying. Yeah thats pretty much what I was planning to do.

Great.

I just might also get the D50 dac down the line too if only to clean up my desk of cable clutter.

You can add a dedicated DAC like the D50 III for sure, although I doubt you will hear sound quality improvement. Also, if you want to monitor your audio interface's output through the external hp amp, or want to use the D50 III for your monitor speakers, how would you connect them? Things will be complicated and you will need to accept some inconvenience.

Do you see any conflict happening between the Focusrite and Topping softwares?

I don't think there will be a conflict.

Also, whats the best way of powering the D50? I see that it has separate data and power type C ports AND a DC plug too. Also that they sell a linear power supply for it as well, do you see a point in buying it? I have heard that linear PSUs can improve the sound, though it was just that one guy's experience with running the Fiio K7 through K9's amp and he said it sounded much better and attributed it to the better PSU. At that point am I better off just getting the K9? Its huge tho, at least separate units give me the flexibility to position them more conveniently like hiding the PSU under the desk or something.

I own and measured the D50 III. I did not see any difference b/w a single USB/power cable connection and separate data & power connections. I also measured the D50 III using both linear and switching (regular charging adapter) PSUs. No difference, either. So, even if your computer's USB jack does not supply enough power, a regular switching PSU (i.e., phone charger) will do the job.

 

[jkim]

If you really want to build measurably the best, as well as versatile, setup---whether you're able to hear the difference or not---, you can:

• Pick one of the following DACs: Topping D50 III, E50, or E70. Any of these will give you the current state-of-the-art performance.
• Pick the Topping L70 headphone amp. One of the best performers tested so far, and will enable you to control the volume of both your monitor speakers and headphones with separately stored memory.
• (Optional) Add a balanced line input selector like the Nobsound MC103-Pro 3-IN-1-OUT XLR Audio Switch. With this, you can switch b/w the DAC and audio interface's line outs to feed the L70.

EDIT. By the way I own the D50 III and L70. My quick comment and measurements are here and here: Outputs are astonishingly transparent.

 

[NecroRAM]

If you really want to build measurably the best, as well as versatile, setup---whether you're able to hear the difference or not---, you can:

• Pick one of the following DACs: Topping D50 III, E50, or E70. Any of these will give you the current state-of-the-art performance.
• Pick the Topping L70 headphone amp. One of the best performers tested so far, and will enable you to control the volume of both your monitor speakers and headphones with separately stored memory.
• (Optional) Add a balanced line input selector like the Nobsound MC103-Pro 3-IN-1-OUT XLR Audio Switch. With this, you can switch b/w the DAC and audio interface's line outs to feed the L70.

EDIT. By the way I own the D50 III and L70. My quick comment and measurements are here and here: Outputs are astonishingly transparent.

Wow, thanks for the detailed replies. I wanna keep it in the A50 size, think I'll start with it and see how it goes, should be quite an upgrade over my current setup anyway. For hp monitoring either the amp or interface output I'll just switch the cable, I rarely if ever need to monitor just the interface's audio through the headphones.

 

[NecroRAM]

If you really want to build measurably the best, as well as versatile, setup---whether you're able to hear the difference or not---, you can:

• Pick one of the following DACs: Topping D50 III, E50, or E70. Any of these will give you the current state-of-the-art performance.
• Pick the Topping L70 headphone amp. One of the best performers tested so far, and will enable you to control the volume of both your monitor speakers and headphones with separately stored memory.
• (Optional) Add a balanced line input selector like the Nobsound MC103-Pro 3-IN-1-OUT XLR Audio Switch. With this, you can switch b/w the DAC and audio interface's line outs to feed the L70.

EDIT. By the way I own the D50 III and L70. My quick comment and measurements are here and here: Outputs are astonishingly transparent.

One more thing, now Im thinking of getting the DX3Pro+ as an all in one solution, any pros/cons what I should be aware of? Especially compared to getting the A50 III?

OR, I might really go for the Element IV even.

 

[jkim]

As you mentioned, if your audio interface in the loop is not that important, it doesn't matter.

In fact, most of dedicated DAC/hp amp combo devices will serve your purpose significantly better than the Scarlett you currently have.

Even the Topping DX1 will suffice (unless you need to drive exceptionally power-hungry headphones), and you won't hear a difference b/w the DX1 and other higher-spec device. Look this way: Most speakers and headphones' THD+N numbers are at least 20 to 100 times higher than a good DAC's THD+N.

So, chasing DAC THD+N is pointless. Balanced headphone connection is also a myth. As long as you get necessary volume/power, you lose nothing by using a single-ended headphone output.