Has DSP turned us into audio neurotics? [rant]

[Anton S]

You say Lee Perry or King Tubby (the inventors of dub music) are no artists or even musicians because their instrument is the mixing board and sound effects? ...

That is correct. They are NOT musicians by my - and Webster's - definition. At their best, they are engineers; at their worst, butchers. You are certainly welcome to define them any way you like.

 

[DLS79]

That is correct. They are NOT musicians by my - and Webster's - definition. At their best, they are engineers; at their worst, butchers. You are certainly welcome to define them any way you like.

So if you create music purely in the digital realm, you aren't a musician?

 

[Robin L]

Hmmm - so under your definition Sir George Martin was just a technician. Would the Beatles have had the same sound with a different producer? He was clearly part of the creative process - part of the band. Just using this as an example of why lines are difficult to draw.

Not to mention the work of Geoff Emerick.

 

[Chr1]

Unfortunately it seems to me that there are lots of people here who simply don't understand the complexities of modern music production.
I suspect this is mostly due to them not being interested in modern musical genres, and therefore not understanding their production process.

 

[Anton S]

Unfortunately it seems to me that there are lots of people here who simply don't understand the complexities of modern music production.
I suspect this is mostly due to them not being interested in modern musical genres, and therefore not understanding their production process.

It seems to me that there are a lot of people here who feel free to redefine standard terms to suit themselves.

 

[MattHooper]

Of course not. You can enjoy music via an Iphone speaker. But the point here is the intention of respect towards artistic creation when choosing the equipment. In this regard some tube and vinyl lovers seem to favor their own pleasure instead of original creativity.

I’m afraid I find this just silly. Again, the level of colouration we are typically talking about in many audiophile systems is vastly outweigh by the sonic information of the recording itself. This is true “ making mountains out of molehills” stuff that some audiophiles do to try and justify their own purchase decisions as something more virtuous.

Your typical audiophile has a pair of loudspeakers, carefully selected, and very carefully set up and dialled in for a specific listening position, and they typically sit down and listen intently. They are usually more aware of the particular characters of a recording, large and small, than your average music lover.

I use tube amps which seem to me to nudge the sound slightly and I like versus solid-state amps. Am I no longer hearing the right detail and recordings? Of course I am.

My musician friends have often brought over there various masters or completed recordings to check out on my system. My brother is an indie musician who records in his own studio very elaborate music, which includes hiring members of the local Symphony Orchestra. He brings his masters over to my place for us to judge, and he loves it because he will hear even more deeply into his recordings. And he loved hearing his completed album on vinyl on such systems.

Again, here we are talking about what amounts to minutia. My minutia certainly we care about - that’s the tendency of audiophiles.

In the big picture though, the artistry and musically relevant information of a recording translates through coloured gear as it does neutral gear, which is why most people get the artistic message however they listen.

 

[Chr1]

It seems to me that there are a lot of people here who feel free to redefine standard terms to suit themselves.

What standard terms are you referring to exactly?

 

[DLS79]

It seems to me that there are a lot of people here who feel free to redefine standard terms to suit themselves.

We didn't redefine them, they got redefined decades ago when things like synthesizers were invented.

 

[MattHooper]

How many here have had conversations with various musicians about what they consider important aspects of their performances?

Me. I was also a part-time musician. But I still know plenty of musicians and we talk all the time.

Would those of you who have please share whatever insights you may have gained from those exchanges? And to the musicians among us, what do YOU consider important aspects?

You might find this interesting. My brother is an indie musician who records and produces his own music (it’s very extravagant, often with symphonic qualities, employing memories of the local Symphony Orchestra).

I asked him all things considered which media would he prefer for his audience? Represents his ultimate artistic intent?

Here is his response that I posted in the vinyl thread if you are interested

 

[Anton S]

Interesting. For your consideration, I asked a musician friend (primarily alto sax and keyboards) this morning what was most important to him in conveying his musical intent. His response was, "phrasing." I know him very well, so I was quite certain that his answer would have nothing to do with the medium or playback fidelity, but asked anyway.

EDIT: He also mentioned to me that when he heard his music played back to him in the studio, it sounded nothing like it did to him while he was playing, because he was on the inside playing out.

 

[MattHooper]

Interesting. For your consideration, I asked a musician friend (primarily alto sax and keyboards) this morning what was most important to him in conveying his musical intent. His response was, "phrasing." I know him very well, so I was quite certain that his answer would have nothing with the medium or playback fidelity, but asked anyway.

Yes, your question a different scenario than mine to my brother.

He’s primarily a bass player. If I’d asked only about what was most important in his musicianship, he’d likely have given me a similar answer.

In this case, I was asking, especially since he produces his own music, What would his ideal scenario be for how his audience experiences his released tracks.

 

[Sal1950]

In the big picture though, the artistry and musically relevant information of a recording translates through coloured gear as it does neutral gear, which is why most people get the artistic message however they listen.

Depends, that's a matter of perception and tolerance.
How degraded does a recording have to become before its no longer enjoyable to you?
There's a limit to everything NO?
Could you enjoy listening to your favorite recording from the inside of a car playing one of those systems that have every panel in the car buzzing and rattling that you can hear it coming from a 1/4 mile away?

 

[Jim Taylor]

.... he was on the inside playing out.

What an apt description! I like that.

Jim

 

[CapMan]

Could you enjoy listening to your favorite recording from the inside of a car playing one of those systems that have every panel in the car buzzing and rattling that you can hear it coming from a 1/4 mile away?

But that's a million miles away from the point @MattHooper is making. Perhaps the fact you've had to take this to such an extreme says enough ?

 

[Sal1950]

But that's a million miles away from the point @MattHooper is making.

Is it, think about it. He claimed "musically relevant information of a recording translates through coloured gear as it does neutral gear,"
So no matter how colored or what the listeners preferences, the recording will still be enjoyable.?

 

[CapMan]

Is it, think about it. He claimed "musically relevant information of a recording translates through coloured gear as it does neutral gear,"
So no matter how colored or what the listeners preferences, the recording will still be enjoyable.?

How crappy the sound has to become before someone says, enough I'm not enjoying this, is entirely subjective and contextual.

Whilst I wouldn't chose one of those dodgy tube amps you linked to earlier, I'm certain that I would still enjoy my favourite tunes if they were played though them.

 

[Sokel]

Problem with "normal" tube amps combined with "normal" today's speakers is not only whatever coloration or FR change may produce.
Problem is power.
Unless someone listens at 70dB( C) SPL average or lower.Cause if we try to go higher with music with a high CR,transients simply don't happen,the amp is constantly clipping.

Back in their time,with the big midrange,sensitive speakers that was around back then (and usually horns) that was not so much of a problem.
But anything lower than 88dB sens combined with the usual 30 W (and highly distorted at the end of their power) tubes are not fit to play music with high dynamic range for a distance more than 2 meters.