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Had more bass with 2.0 than with 5.0.2 after AVR and Audyssey. How to fix?

theonline3333

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I have a 5.0.2 setup in an apartment. I have already done the research and posted and received advice about whether I can have a sub but I have decided not to get one. I updated from 2.0 to an AVR and 5.0.2 and after doing that and audyssey it feels like there is little to no bass. When I had the 2.0 setup I felt a lot more bass and it was a lot more satisfying. I have emotiva b1+ and c1+ LCR, neumi bs5 surrounds, micca covo-s atmos speakers and a Denon s760h AVR.

I have been trying to find posts about audyssey with no sub and am not finding much info out there about this kind of issue. Should I keep using audyssey or turn off multeq? I think I will try the LR bypass and see if that helps any. Any other suggestions? I just want to boost the bass a little. My front L and R are set to large, center at 80, surrounds at 60(trying 60 and 80), and atmos at 100. I am adding a bass shaker but I want to get some more bass from my front speakers like I had before I added the AVR and audyssey.

What would you do to increase the bass to a little more satisfying of a level without adding a sub?
 
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AudiOhm

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Are all your speakers phased correctly?

Ohms
 
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theonline3333

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Are all your speakers phased correctly?

Ohms
Thanks. If that means did I hook the cords up right, yes I did. The original tones test in denon worked. I just need to know how to add more bass without a sub. The amp I had before the avr had a bass mode and that sounded good.

I have it set to no sub, front L and R large/full range everything else small. I have Dynamic Volume on. I just tried the audyssey bypass LR setting and it seems to be helping. I also adjusted each speaker level: +2db front L and R, +4db surrounds, +4db atmos. I have dialogue enhancer on high. The B1+ L and R are 48hz+ but are set to full range. Movies mostly no music if that helps.
 

darthe

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Side topic but have similar setup to yours in apartment Emotiva b1+/c1+ some cheap daytons as surrounds, never thought of being able to setup atmos in apartment, would love to see how you mounted those Micca's for it?
 
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theonline3333

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Side topic but have similar setup to yours in apartment Emotiva b1+/c1+ some cheap daytons as surrounds, never thought of being able to setup atmos in apartment, would love to see how you mounted those Micca's for it?
How do you like the emotivas? I am sitting here wondering if I should have just gotten the neumi bs5s and cs5 for LCR instead with how little enjoyment level I am getting right now vs the cheaper Kanto speakers I had in there before though it may be a settings thing if I can figure it out. The amp I had for the 2.0 setup had a Bass Preset EQ mode that felt perfect. I just don't know enough about audio to figure out how to mimic that setting on the denon.

Regarding attaching the speakers. I used this -


Worked very easily. One thing though that I would do a little different. I set them at the very top corner where the wall meets the ceiling and when I was trying to position speaker later I ran into issues trying to adjust it and it hitting the ceiling/wall. I would probably have put it maybe an inch or so lower to have more room for adjustments but I already had the holes in the wall and did not want to make more.
 

HarmonicTHD

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Did you measure within ca 30cm when doing the automated Audyssey measurements?

Is your sub capable enough in terms of SPL vs the woofers in your speakers?

Did you place your sub(s) correctly? So they don’t create a null?

Can you use the Audyssey app and create a preference curve, which boosts Bass below ca 200Hz by 2 to 4dB?
 

Apesbrain

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Thanks. If that means did I hook the cords up right, yes I did. The original tones test in denon worked.
Not to belabor the point, but the test tones working is not confirmation that your speakers are wired in phase. "In phase" means every speaker is wired (+) to (+) on the amplifier. If speakers are not in phase, the first thing to suffer is bass as the radiated sound pattern cancels out.

speakerconnections.jpg


Phase cancellation can also result if the speakers are not equidistant from the listener or are subject to various room size and shape interference, but due to the long wavelengths involved (100 Hz = 4 meters) this is less likely with bass tones. Still, it's possible with the addition of 5 new sound sources placed around your room you are now getting interaction sufficient to be audible.

I thought Audyssey was able to detect phase problems at the listening position and correct for them? For anyone familiar with MultEQ, is that correct?

I just don't know enough about audio to figure out how to mimic that setting on the denon.
Use the Denon's on-board equalizer. See "Settings" > "Audio" > "Manual EQ" in the manual:
If I follow, you can run Audyssey first, then "Copy curve" and make manual modifications to the settings calculated by MultEQ. That's what I'd try first.

Did you place your sub(s) correctly? So they don’t create a null?
There are no subs. It's a 5.0.2 configuration.
 
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theonline3333

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Did you measure within ca 30cm when doing the automated Audyssey measurements?

Is your sub capable enough in terms of SPL vs the woofers in your speakers?

Did you place your sub(s) correctly? So they don’t create a null?

Can you use the Audyssey app and create a preference curve, which boosts Bass below ca 200Hz by 2 to 4dB?
Thanks. No subs installed. Speakers were in range and audyssey distances correct. No app.
 
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theonline3333

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Not to belabor the point, but the test tones working is not confirmation that your speakers are wired in phase. "In phase" means every speaker is wired (+) to (+) on the amplifier. If speakers are not in phase, the first thing to suffer is bass as the radiated sound pattern cancels out.

speakerconnections.jpg


Phase cancellation can also result if the speakers are not equidistant from the listener or are subject to various room size and shape interference, but due to the long wavelengths involved (100 Hz = 4 meters) this is less likely with bass tones. Still, it's possible with the addition of 5 new sound sources placed around your room you are now getting interaction sufficient to be audible.

I thought Audyssey was able to detect phase problems at the listening position and correct for them? For anyone familiar with MultEQ, is that correct?


Use the Denon's on-board equalizer. See "Settings" > "Audio" > "Manual EQ" in the manual:
If I follow, you can run Audyssey first, then "Copy curve" and make manual modifications to the settings calculated by MultEQ. That's what I'd try first.


There are no subs. It's a 5.0.2 configuration.
Thank you. Yes the wires are connected right. I see manual eq settings. I may try that copy curve. It seems like maybe I should not have gotten an AVR. I liked the simple settings on the amp I had. It had a Bass EQ Preset that worked perfectly. Weird how spending 3 times as much on an AVR makes it at least that much more complicated. Wish there was a simple mode where I could just choose bass boost.
 

sarumbear

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I have a 5.0.2 setup in an apartment. I have already done the research and posted and received advice about whether I can have a sub but I have decided not to get one. I updated from 2.0 to an AVR and 5.0.2 and after doing that and audyssey it feels like there is little to no bass. When I had the 2.0 setup I felt a lot more bass and it was a lot more satisfying. I have emotiva b1+ and c1+ LCR, neumi bs5 surrounds, micca covo-s atmos speakers and a Denon s760h AVR.
Most likely you had room modes which had accentuated your perceived bass. Now the AVR flattened the bass response and you are not happy with the flat bass. That’s very common. Loud bass is addictive but not necessarily mean correct.

However, make sure your AVR is set to non subwoofer and large LR speakers (if centre is also large then all front speakers set to large).
 
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wwenze

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The problem is the 5.0.2 setup...

You need to make sure the AVR knows it is a 5.0.2 instead of a 5.1.2. And make sure the AVR knows what to do with a 5.0.2 setup. Some AVR are very, very stupid.

Make sure <200Hz sound is even coming from your speakers to begin with. You can use YouTube on your TV for that.

 
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theonline3333

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Most likely you had room modes which had accentuated your perceived bass. Now the AVR flattened the bass response and you are not happy with the flat bass. That’s very common. Loud bass is addictive but not necessarily mean correct.

However, make sure your AVR is set to non subwoofer and large LR speakers (if centre is also large then all front speakers set to large).
Thanks. I just want more bass. Yes I know not having a sub is not ideal but if I had a more satisfying effect from 2.0 you would think I could at least get that from a setup that is 3x more expensive. I am mostly watching tv. I may set the reference level to 10 in eq settings and see how that does.
 

Newman

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You need to get your Audyssey EQ target settings right. Your AVR has Audyssey app support, so just dial in a smooth boost below 140 Hz that is 0 at 140 Hz and ‘+X’ dB at 80 Hz and below, but not lower than the bottom end of your speakers’ range. (‘X’ is to taste, but +4 dB is a good starting point).

cheers
 

sarumbear

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Thanks. I just want more bass. Yes I know not having a sub is not ideal but if I had a more satisfying effect from 2.0 you would think I could at least get that from a setup that is 3x more expensive. I am mostly watching tv. I may set the reference level to 10 in eq settings and see how that does.
Have you tried setting Audyssey off?
 
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theonline3333

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You need to get your Audyssey EQ target settings right. Your AVR has Audyssey app support, so just dial in a smooth boost below 140 Hz that is 0 at 140 Hz and ‘+X’ dB at 80 Hz and below, but not lower than the bottom end of your speakers’ range. (‘X’ is to taste, but +4 dB is a good starting point).

cheers
Thanks. So I need to buy an app to get more bass? Just making sure. I don't mind spending $20 but only if it is actually going to help me. I prefer less tinkering as I understand like 10% of the terms being used.

Have you tried setting Audyssey off?
I may just do this if doing 10db reference setting(since I watch mostly tv) to see if that works.
 

darthe

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How do you like the emotivas? I am sitting here wondering if I should have just gotten the neumi bs5s and cs5 for LCR instead with how little enjoyment level I am getting right now vs the cheaper Kanto speakers I had in there before though it may be a settings thing if I can figure it out. The amp I had for the 2.0 setup had a Bass Preset EQ mode that felt perfect. I just don't know enough about audio to figure out how to mimic that setting on the denon.

Regarding attaching the speakers. I used this -


Worked very easily. One thing though that I would do a little different. I set them at the very top corner where the wall meets the ceiling and when I was trying to position speaker later I ran into issues trying to adjust it and it hitting the ceiling/wall. I would probably have put it maybe an inch or so lower to have more room for adjustments but I already had the holes in the wall and did not want to make more.
Would mounted up front be more front heights then atmos?


Love the emotivas, don't have a denon, and have an SVS sub so bass has not been an issue, in fact with my Yamaha the emotiva are quite good bass wise when I turn off the sub (at night). I have heard great things about Audyssey and that the app for 20 is definetly worth it.
 

Putter

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While I suspect that this is a case where optimal placement of speakers for stereo trumps best location for bass, something that has not been mentioned yet is using Audyssey Dynamic EQ which increases bass and to a lesser degree treble based on volume and type of music. You might try setting it a 0db which gives the maximum boost and designed for movies and use lower settings if it gives excessive bass.
 

AudiOhm

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To see if all your equipment is phased correctly, I like to play a 5 Hz signal from all sources possible.

Place the speakers next to each other (front L and R for an example). You can see the woofer movement and ensure they are moving together.

This will guarantee all your cabling is correct...

Ohms
 
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theonline3333

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Thanks everyone. This issue is now fixed. I set front LCR and the two surrounds to large and moved the L and R closer to the wall and left EQ on with ref level 0 and it is very pleasing now. I feel like having the bass that each speaker puts out while not great individually all together kind of surrounds me in a decent enough level of bass that is fun for watching tv and movies. I imagine that when I add the bass shaker to my chair it will be a nice addition and get me about as far as I can with it without a sub.
 
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