Genelec Home Theater on Digital

[chelgrian]

How about this …

Immersive Sound Processor - ISP Evo

The ISP Evo is a purely digital evolution of StormAudio immersive sound processors. This is the answer to pure digital installations.

www.stormaudio.com

That's even more expensive than doing it with an Arvus. An Arvus is around 5K and the Genelec AES interface ~1k. An ISO Evo is well in excess of £10k

 

[cata02]

But you have already spent the money. You can get the result you want, with the same sound quality, without spending many thousands.

What's the solution you are refering to here? i must have missed it.

A preamp+going another set of sound management is lottery imo regarding "same sound quality"; could be, could be not, not having the budget nor wilingness to experiment until everything is right.
But having said that, i am not seeing any other reasonable option than an avr and using the preamp. i'll try to make sense of what this entails and decide if i wanna take the plunge.

 

[chelgrian]

What's the solution you are refering to here? i must have missed it.

This person is suggesting an analogue AVR with pre-outs and using its room eq etc.

That is to say not what you asked for.

However unless you want to spend the money on the Arvus and the Genelec AES unit the best you will do is finding an AVR with the best analogue pre outs you can find ignoring its built in EQ and bass management etc then run the pre outs in to the Analog inputs on the Sub and run everything using GLM after that.

 

[bodhi]

What's the solution you are refering to here? i must have missed it.

AVR and preouts. Something with Dirac or Audyssey XT32.

I have Audyssey XT32 setup and GLM 2.1 setup and based on REW results I think Audyssey is even doing a better job. I'm actually consider moving my 8350s to main setup and either getting smaller Genelecs or something cheaper for the deskop.

I understand it feels wrong to waste the digital part of your Gennies when you paid for that already, but that money is already gone. For the least amount of money you have the AVR route and other routes are more expensive without any benefit in sound quality.

 

[cata02]

AVR and preouts. Something with Dirac or Audyssey XT32.

I have Audyssey XT32 setup and GLM 2.1 setup and based on REW results I think Audyssey is even doing a better job. I'm actually consider moving my 8350s to main setup and either getting smaller Genelecs or something cheaper for the deskop.

I understand it feels wrong to waste the digital part of your Gennies when you paid for that already, but that money is already gone. For the least amount of money you have the AVR route and other routes are more expensive without any benefit in sound quality.

Is the reason for using Audissey instead of GLM because it delivers subjectivelly better results, or is there some other reason i am failing to see?

 

[chelgrian]

If the reason for using Audissey instead of GLM because it delivers subjectivelly better results, or is there some other reason i am failing to see?

Note we are now up to GLM 4 and the way it does calculations is rather different to previous versions.

 

[Vacceo]

The cheapest way to do this completely digitally is:

Arvus 16 channel Dolby ATMOS HDMI decoder to Dante, Ravenna, AES/EBU and Analog

H2-4D is the world's first 16 channel Dolby ATMOS HDMI decoder to Dante, Ravenna, AES/EBU and Balanced Analog. Now Selling

www.arvus.com

Which will take eARC over HDMI from your TV and decode the compressed in to AES.

Then in order to get base management right with GLM you need

9301B AES/EBU Multichannel Interface - Genelec.com

The 9301B multichannel interface is a handy digital I/O expansion that offers a simple and robust way to connect and integrate 7300 Series Smart Active Subwoofers as part of any Genelec immersive audio system.

www.genelec.com

Neither of these units are particularly cheap.

I'm honestly curious about final results. I'm sure there is a measurable difference in using an AVR with XLR's to the Genelecs compared to using the Arvus.

However, is that difference audible?

 

[bodhi]

If the reason for using Audissey instead of GLM because it delivers subjectivelly better results, or is there some other reason i am failing to see?

Much less manual work mostly. What I'm thinking that if you just use Audyssey then it handles everything from distances to sound levels and you can then access the other features such as dynamic EQ (very useful). Otherwise you would just run the AVR with no correction at all. I guess it could be done and might be reasonable if you can find cheaper AVR with preouts and without the XT32/Dirac.

 

[gondorff]

There are a few other options besides Trinnov, Arvus, StormAudio, Lyngdorf. In my opinion, these are priced incomprehensibly, low quantities already considered. So, if you can abstain from Atmos:

Theoretically, it should be possible to replace an AVR with a Raspberry Pi and an add-on board which features 4 AES/EBU outputs.
The crazy thing is: you can buy a Pi with 2 channel AES out and you can buy one with 8 channel driverless analog out and HDMI input(!) which decodes (not extracts) up to Dolby TrueHD.
What you can, of course, not buy, is an add-on board with 4 AES outputs and only god knows why. It is insane.

Getting more practical in all digital:

Option 1)
As you only need 4.1: The VanityPro costs ~ 1500.
This works only if you are able to get the decoding stage moved to the TV, BluRay, AppleTV (or whatever you use as source). All these devices are capable of outputting LPCM 8 channel uncompressed. The VanityPro will extract that and outputs this as AES3. Regarding this, you might find more info from myself and others if you dig deep enough in this thread:

Audiopraise VanityPro Review (HDMI Audio Extractor)

This is a review and measurements of the Audiopraise VanityPro HDMI audio extractor. It was kindly sent to me by their distributor, JVB Digital and costs US $1,599. The VanityPro is a compact device, not much bigger than typical desktop audio products. Its main functionality is to extract...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Option 2)
Remove HDCP via HDFury or similar trustable components. Convert HDMI to SDI. Convert SDI to multichannel AES3. Feed output to speakers. Needs also decoding in source; same restrictions as VanityPro apply here. Problem: It is a giant mess consisting of cables and boxes.

Option 3)
Get one of the older Dolby/ DTS decoders made for Film authoring: DTS CAD 4/5 or Dolby DP564 etc.
The good: decodes directly Dolby or DTS to AES via optical in.
The bad: decodes directly Dolby or DTS to AES via optical in. You are running an all digital network but compressed instead of lossless (as would be the case of an analog network).

Option 4)
The future, aka AES 67. Purely academic, because: requires a whole new setup. See https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/new-product-arvus-h1-d.47117/

 

[Littletycoon]

I'm honestly curious about final results. I'm sure there is a measurable difference in using an AVR with XLR's to the Genelecs compared to using the Arvus.

However, is that difference audible?

Avr's typically don't do xlr out (xlr is pre pro territory), but rca. And then it depends on the avr plus the analog cables. The avr's measured on asr typically have low sinad. It is possible that some brands of avr cause an audible difference in the sound signature. But i can't tell you whether possibly equates to likely, too many other factors in play.

 

[cata02]

There are a few other options besides Trinnov, Arvus, StormAudio, Lyngdorf. In my opinion, these are priced incomprehensibly, low quantities already considered. So, if you can abstain from Atmos:

Theoretically, it should be possible to replace an AVR with a Raspberry Pi and an add-on board which features 4 AES/EBU outputs.
The crazy thing is: you can buy a Pi with 2 channel AES out and you can buy one with 8 channel driverless analog out and HDMI input(!) which decodes (not extracts) up to Dolby TrueHD.
What you can, of course, not buy, is an add-on board with 4 AES outputs and only god knows why. It is insane.

Getting more practical in all digital:

Option 1)
As you only need 4.1: The VanityPro costs ~ 1500.
This works only if you are able to get the decoding stage moved to the TV, BluRay, AppleTV (or whatever you use as source). All these devices are capable of outputting LPCM 8 channel uncompressed. The VanityPro will extract that and outputs this as AES3. Regarding this, you might find more info from myself and others if you dig deep enough in this thread:

Audiopraise VanityPro Review (HDMI Audio Extractor)

This is a review and measurements of the Audiopraise VanityPro HDMI audio extractor. It was kindly sent to me by their distributor, JVB Digital and costs US $1,599. The VanityPro is a compact device, not much bigger than typical desktop audio products. Its main functionality is to extract...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Option 2)
Remove HDCP via HDFury or similar trustable components. Convert HDMI to SDI. Convert SDI to multichannel AES3. Feed output to speakers. Needs also decoding in source; same restrictions as VanityPro apply here. Problem: It is a giant mess consisting of cables and boxes.

Option 3)
Get one of the older Dolby/ DTS decoders made for Film authoring: DTS CAD 4/5 or Dolby DP564 etc.
The good: decodes directly Dolby or DTS to AES via optical in.
The bad: decodes Dolby to AES via optical in. You are running an all digital network but compressed instead of lossless (as would be the case of an analog network).

Option 4)
The future, aka AES 67. Purely academic, because: requires a whole new setup. See https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/new-product-arvus-h1-d.47117/

Thanks for the detailed answer.

I was actuallly hoping for an rpi based solution but i have major doubts it will work for home theater scenarios.

Are you aware of any projects that got this working to any extent?

Regarding the multiple aes outputs on a rpi, wouldn't minidsp do it https://www.minidsp.com/products/usb-audio-interface/u-dio8?

 

[chelgrian]

There are a few other options besides Trinnov, Arvus, StormAudio, Lyngdorf. In my opinion, these are priced incomprehensibly, low quantities already considered. So, if you can abstain from Atmos:

Theoretically, it should be possible to replace an AVR with a Raspberry Pi and an add-on board which features 4 AES/EBU outputs.
The crazy thing is: you can buy a Pi with 2 channel AES out and you can buy one with 8 channel driverless analog out and HDMI input(!) which decodes (not extracts) up to Dolby TrueHD.
What you can, of course, not buy, is an add-on board with 4 AES outputs and only god knows why. It is insane.

Getting more practical in all digital:

Option 1)
As you only need 4.1: The VanityPro costs ~ 1500.
This works only if you are able to get the decoding stage moved to the TV, BluRay, AppleTV (or whatever you use as source). All these devices are capable of outputting LPCM 8 channel uncompressed. The VanityPro will extract that and outputs this as AES3. Regarding this, you might find more info from myself and others if you dig deep enough in this thread:

Audiopraise VanityPro Review (HDMI Audio Extractor)

This is a review and measurements of the Audiopraise VanityPro HDMI audio extractor. It was kindly sent to me by their distributor, JVB Digital and costs US $1,599. The VanityPro is a compact device, not much bigger than typical desktop audio products. Its main functionality is to extract...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Option 2)
Remove HDCP via HDFury or similar trustable components. Convert HDMI to SDI. Convert SDI to multichannel AES3. Feed output to speakers. Needs also decoding in source; same restrictions as VanityPro apply here. Problem: It is a giant mess consisting of cables and boxes.

Option 3)
Get one of the older Dolby/ DTS decoders made for Film authoring: DTS CAD 4/5 or Dolby DP564 etc.
The good: decodes directly Dolby or DTS to AES via optical in.
The bad: decodes directly Dolby or DTS to AES via optical in. You are running an all digital network but compressed instead of lossless (as would be the case of an analog network).

Option 4)
The future, aka AES 67. Purely academic, because: requires a whole new setup. See https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/new-product-arvus-h1-d.47117/

The i2c bus on an RPi tops out at an absolute maximum of 5Mbit/s so there is not enough bandwidth for more than 3 channels of audio. In the case of the other hat all the processing must be being done on the hat and the Pi is just providing control.

 

[Littletycoon]

Regarding the multiple aes outputs on a rpi, wouldn't minidsp do it https://www.minidsp.com/products/usb-audio-interface/u-dio8?

With an optical to usb cable good chance it will work

 

[gondorff]

Are you aware of any projects that got this working to any extent?

Regarding the multiple aes outputs on a rpi, wouldn't minidsp do it https://www.minidsp.com/products/usb-audio-interface/u-dio8?

No, unfortunately not. Several people in various forums tried, I know of no case which showed a successful chain.

The minidsp route could work on paper. The biggest problem is that there is no HDMI in. How would one get the standard devices into that chain? If all files are lying around a JBOD, it might be feasible. The only HDMI add-in input devices for a Pi are working like capture cards for a standard PC. Never seen anyone getting such a thing to work with 23.97 fps and other similar beautiful things.

 

[Vacceo]

Avr's typically don't do xlr out (xlr is pre pro territory), but rca. And then it depends on the avr plus the analog cables. The avr's measured on asr typically have low sinad. It is possible that some brands of avr cause an audible difference in the sound signature. But i can't tell you whether possibly equates to likely, too many other factors in play.

Let's go for the good ones, like Marantz AV 10 or McIntosh MX100, both above 100 db SINAD and both have XLR outs.

Those could be interesting cases to apply to my initial question.

 

[chelgrian]

Let's go for the good ones, like Marantz AV 10 or McIntosh MX100, both above 100 db SINAD and both have XLR outs.

Those could be interesting cases to apply to my initial question.

Last time I looked the MX100 was £7k but it does at least have competently designed analogue outputs.

 

[bungle]

More than 2.0 is already a problem with analog XLR. A way bigger problem with digital.

 

[formdissolve]

If you're worried about sound quality, using a high quality AVR or other solution (even over analog in) is much better than using TV's optical out. Those optical out ports usually force 16 bit 48kHz due to copy protection etc. They are also notorious for having high jitter and other issues. That is one thing to keep in mind.

 

[bungle]

If you're worried about sound quality, using a high quality AVR

There is unfortunately no such thing. Either you go with high quality 2.0 or subpar > 2.0. No matter how much you pay, and in general you have to pay car like amounts to get digital AVR/AVP that is not even close to $100 2.0 DAC.

 

[gondorff]

The i2c bus on an RPi tops out at an absolute maximum of 5Mbit/s so there is not enough bandwidth for more than 3 channels of audio. In the case of the other hat all the processing must be being done on the hat and the Pi is just providing control.

Thanks, looks like I have a few misconceptions. I read somewhere that the Pi4 has 6 (?) lanes for i2c, each around 5MBit, which is around the 28 MBit for BluRay 8 channel audio. How come this is not working as planned?