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Genelec Global Launch Event - Facebook livestream today at 19:00 GMT

Julf

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#62
In terms of durability a well designed class AB amplifier can go on for many decades, I will be surprised if class D amplifiers match their longevity.
Why wouldn't they?
 
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#63
A.png
B.png

Seems pretty nice improvement when compared to A generation.

Ilkka, when you are going to publish more detailed user manuals with power response curve, group delay data etc.? (a la S360 manual)

Have you managed to solve the mid range distortion issue (8351A), which was reported on several forums and measured by Knif Audio?
8351A Distortion & step response:
43522617_1678512582259217_8061773976755503104_o.png
43426722_1678526918924450_4899657687224025088_n.png
 

Julf

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#65
Modules of that type tend to have a definite life expectancy, dependent on how well they're implemented. The key will be long term availability of replacement modules or equivalent drop in equivalent modules.
A "module" is just another circuit board (unless you are talking about specific chips on those boards).
 

restorer-john

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#66
Why wouldn't they?
The SMPS power supplies used frequently to power these modules are the weak point. Running capacitors at high frequencies and high currents produces heat, lots of it, and that heat is inside the cpacitors, in the electrolyte. They essentially cook themselves from the inside out.

Linear (transformer) supplies have massive amounts of copper and steel to dissipate what little heat they produce. The filter caps always run cool, as do the rectifiers. Their operational life is measured in multiple decades.

Failures in traditional linear supplies are very rare, easy to troubleshoot, and cost effective to repair. Failures in SMPS supplies are the opposite, expensive, require bespoke parts, often catastrophic in nature (multiple cascaded failure) and, due to unmarked or unidentified components, repairs are often simply not possible.

The "modules" used in typical implementations are plug and play and you are bound by the supplier maintaining stock of modules at whatever price they decide is reasonable (or unreasonable). It's all a recipe for mass landfill in 10-15 years.
 

Ron Texas

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#67
The "modules" used in typical implementations are plug and play and you are bound by the supplier maintaining stock of modules at whatever price they decide is reasonable (or unreasonable). It's all a recipe for mass landfill in 10-15 years.
I think it's OK if the gear isn't real expensive. Just treat it as disposable when it fails. I think one could go safely as high as $750 per powered monitor provided the item sold in very large quantities making parts availability more likely. Cheap stuff like JBL LSR 3's are no risk. Genelec's are pricey and that is a risk.

Perhaps that's why really expensive audiophile speakers will stay passive, and really expensive amplifiers will have transformers which weigh as much as concrete blocks.
 

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#68
The SMPS power supplies used frequently to power these modules are the weak point. Running capacitors at high frequencies and high currents produces heat, lots of it, and that heat is inside the cpacitors, in the electrolyte. They essentially cook themselves from the inside out.
repaired,

That's why SMPSs use capacitors specially designed for that purpose, with low losses at high frequencies.

The "modules" used in typical implementations are plug and play and you are bound by the supplier maintaining stock of modules at whatever price they decide is reasonable (or unreasonable). It's all a recipe for mass landfill in 10-15 years.
Still not sure exactly what you mean by "modules" here. Yes, they are PCBs, just like in linear electronics. They can be repaired, just like linear electronics.
 

restorer-john

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#69
That's why SMPSs use capacitors specially designed for that purpose, with low losses at high frequencies.
You'd better tell that to the many thousands of failed SMPS capacitors I've replaced over the years for premature failure from overheated electrolyte/venting.

Still not sure exactly what you mean by "modules" here. Yes, they are PCBs, just like in linear electronics. They can be repaired, just like linear electronics.
But they are not repaired, that's the point. They are SMD, often with bespoke, unmarked components. Not only that, obtaining schematics for modules (n-core/ice etc) is challenging to say the least. Parts are not sold to do board level repair and you may only be able (for a short time) to obtain complete modules at exorbitant prices. Are you going to send an amplifier module across the world to be repaired or buy a new one? Nope, you'll shell out for a new board.

It's hardly a sustainable practice is it?
 

Julf

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#70
You'd better tell that to the many thousands of failed SMPS capacitors I've replaced over the years for premature failure from overheated electrolyte/venting.
Sounds like a similar amount to the electrolytics I had to replace in linear/analog circuits.

But they are not repaired, that's the point. They are SMD, often with bespoke, unmarked components. Not only that, obtaining schematics for modules (n-core/ice etc) is challenging to say the least. Parts are not sold to do board level repair and you may only be able (for a short time) to obtain complete modules at exorbitant prices. Are you going to send an amplifier module across the world to be repaired or buy a new one? Nope, you'll shell out for a new board.
The same goes for linear/analog electronics these days.
 

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#73
Ilkka, when you are going to publish more detailed user manuals with power response curve, group delay data etc.? (a la S360 manual)
Very soon.

Have you managed to solve the mid range distortion issue (8351A), which was reported on several forums and measured by Knif Audio?
8351A Distortion & step response:
I am not aware of mid range distortion issue on the 8351A model. The measured graph looks as it was designed. Having said that, the new 3rd generation coaxial driver in 8351B and 8361A is greatly improved in all performance aspects, including all sorts of nonlinearities.
 
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#75
Thx for the info @Ilkka Rissanen. Will the prices of 8341 and 8331 change? Will they also get this new coaxial driver?
RRP of 8331A and 8341A will stay the same.

It is physically impossible to fit the new coaxial as 8331A and 8341A coaxial is 90 mm in diameter and the 8351B and 8361A coaxial is 130 mm in diameter. Please notice that the smaller coaxial found in 8331A and 8341A shares many of the design principles and material choices with the 8351B and 8361A coaxial. There is no reason or need to change it. They both provide excellent performance and sound quality.
 

howard416

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#76
The SMPS power supplies used frequently to power these modules are the weak point. Running capacitors at high frequencies and high currents produces heat, lots of it, and that heat is inside the cpacitors, in the electrolyte. They essentially cook themselves from the inside out.

Linear (transformer) supplies have massive amounts of copper and steel to dissipate what little heat they produce. The filter caps always run cool, as do the rectifiers. Their operational life is measured in multiple decades.

Failures in traditional linear supplies are very rare, easy to troubleshoot, and cost effective to repair. Failures in SMPS supplies are the opposite, expensive, require bespoke parts, often catastrophic in nature (multiple cascaded failure) and, due to unmarked or unidentified components, repairs are often simply not possible.

The "modules" used in typical implementations are plug and play and you are bound by the supplier maintaining stock of modules at whatever price they decide is reasonable (or unreasonable). It's all a recipe for mass landfill in 10-15 years.
What about power supplies for PCs? I haven't gone out of my way to do so, but I haven't read about any systemic issues about PC power supply failures for years now.

I mean, you're making it sound like this is a problem that can't be designed around. Caps come with lots of specifications that let you know which to use, where to use them, and how many to use.
 

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#78
I think it's OK if the gear isn't real expensive. Just treat it as disposable when it fails. I think one could go safely as high as $750 per powered monitor provided the item sold in very large quantities making parts availability more likely. Cheap stuff like JBL LSR 3's are no risk. Genelec's are pricey and that is a risk.

Perhaps that's why really expensive audiophile speakers will stay passive, and really expensive amplifiers will have transformers which weigh as much as concrete blocks.
Indeed, if something is cheap enough to treat as a throwaway item then it doesn't really matter but for big ticket type purchases I do feel durability is a concern. DACs are fully commoditised and transparent sound costs peanuts, you can get a good powerful amplifier for not that much which will have a pretty decent feel and with a bit of pride of ownership (such as some of the affordable Yamaha amplifiers). Speakers are the bit of the audio chain that still merits serious thought and where you do have to be willing to pay a bit more than for the cheap stuff if you want something really good. And passive speakers are fundamentally simple and last years and years provided you don't do anything daft. I do think that active digital speakers offer advantages but a good passive speaker can also perform exceptionally well. To be honest, this week after seeing a pair of very expensive active digital headphones crap out and die after 50 days and be faced with customer service that has been anything but impressive I'm really not so well disposed to fancy electronics in audio at the moment.
 

Ron Texas

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#79
@JJB70 Sorry about those headphones falling apart on you. Which Yamaha amps do you have in mind. The WXA-50 is clean, but only 55w @8 ohms. Links to measurements appreciated if you have them. I'm wary of the LS50 wireless and high end Genelec's due to this issue. I might take a chance on the Adam a7x, which is where I got the $750 from. In the US Guitar Center stocks them in over 100 locations which puts them on a par with LSR 3's, Yamaha and Rockit for availability. Mind you, I don't think Genelec's are junk. Also, nobody in Houston has them.
 

pierre

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#80
@JJB70 Sorry about those headphones falling apart on you. Which Yamaha amps do you have in mind. The WXA-50 is clean, but only 55w @8 ohms. Links to measurements appreciated if you have them. I'm wary of the LS50 wireless and high end Genelec's due to this issue. I might take a chance on the Adam a7x, which is where I got the $750 from. In the US Guitar Center stocks them in over 100 locations which puts them on a par with LSR 3's, Yamaha and Rockit for availability. Mind you, I don't think Genelec's are junk. Also, nobody in Houston has them.
My experience with Genelec at work:
- old model longevity is great 20 years is common, rough treatment included (live, broadcast ...)
- they have a great support and they keep parts (but that’s not cheap)

I fully agree that I took a risk buying the new stuff, I didn’t buy devialet phantom because they are hard to repair.
Jbl m2 provide both high quality and longevity but price is an issue.

Adam a7x and friends are very common here and have very good reputation.
 

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