Full Range OR Coaxial?

[rokr]

My last built was a bamboo sphere. I was suggested to use a coaxial driver instead of a full range driver, but for this design I opted for the latter because of the price and looks while the performance was still good. Now I'm starting a new build (a concrete building block/wood thing), and the question is relevant again – full range or coaxial?

Of course, there are different kinds of both types of drivers, different needs and so on, but let's look at two drivers, MARKAUDIO PLUVIA-7.2-HD and SB Acoustics 12PFCR25-4-COAX, they are the same size, cost about the same (the SB's will also need a crossover), compatible with same enclosure size and for this build the SB's plain look still works.

Here are some measurements taken from the manufacture's sites.

So, which one would you choose?


4” SB12PFCR25-4-COAX

MarkAudio Pluvia 7.2 HD​

 

[LTig]

Coax. Full range drivers lack at both frequency extremes (no or distorted lows, no or beaming highs)

 

[ppataki]

I am a huge fan of full range drivers
Up to 6.5 inch they do go up to 20kHz and beaming has the advantage of little to no reflections (can be clearly observed in the impulse response curve of in-room measurements, check out my projects in the DIY section of ASR from the last 3 years)
A sub is recommended if you need higher SPL in the sub-bass range
For near-field (<1m) however, you will probably not need a sub

 

[nerdemoji]

coax if you want +-30 constant dispersion.
full range if you want wider but beams in HF

 

[nas]

Coax
Pros:
-Most likely will perform better with complex music
-Free waveguide for tweeter if the cone is favorable shape. I doubt that is the case in your selected driver.
-Still simple cabinet building

Cons:
-Still need crossover
-Will most likely cost more than 2-way woofer + tweeter
-Doppler distortion is a thing. I am not sure that applies to coaxial but it definitely applies to the entire speaker moving forward-backward.
-Many coax drivers are made with a tweeter as an afterthought. So, the entry to the cone is designed bad. Like really bad. Your driver is an example. More expensive drivers are made better (Seas, Sica etc). So the integrated "waveguide" thing which could be tremendous advantage is a tremendous disadvantage

Fullrange
Pros:
-The best sound on budget for near field listening for non-complex music. Singer + guitar is ok.
-Very good if not the best bang for the buck
-No crossover. If have EQ - no filters needed. Wire and speaker

Cons:
-Most if not all drivers will have multiple flaws. It will be impossible to select one without them for any amount of money.
-The selection of the size of the driver is as problematic as the driver itself: big one will beam at 5+ kHz, small will have no bass.
-Very sensitive to driver cone material implementation. That Pluvia is metal cone, imho big metal cones for full range is a no-go. Too many wild peak at the breakup frequency and higher. Look for smth paper or composite based

In your selection I doubt that metal cone is a way to go on cheap, and that SB coax is not well engineered. There are MANY reviews of both and more of them are not so favorable.

I would go with:
Dayton PS220 or Visaton B200 - more expensive than Pluvia but they are monsters
Any confirmed 3-4" with TABAQ like MLTL - the most fun and performance for the least amount of money. Will lack some bass for sure, and have all the flaws of small fullranges but the mid and highs will be very good. For the first time It is hard to believe how good MLTL sounds
WAW with Dayton PS95 or Vifa TC9 or any other cheap but good 2-3" fullrange + SB paper woofer 6-8" and cross at ~1000 Hz passive for smaller woofers or ~200-300Hz active with bigger. The cost will be comparable to SB coax.
The same, but 2.1 system with subwoofer. The same 8" SB paper woofer is a viable choice or go with commercial one. 70-150 EUR for subwoofer with plate amp + 50EUR for pair of fullranges is more or less comparable to your budget. The boxes for such speakers will be small and you can select from BR, fully closed, aperiodic or even 100+Hz tuned TL and so on.
Seas, Sica, Kartesian or any other properly designed coax - will cost 2x more and still need crossover. I cannot comment on them yet, but will have Sica and Kartesian later this month at hand. From looks of them they are well designed
Classic 5-6" woofer + tweeter in waveguide. If the listening distance is decent the sound still will be heard as point source.

 

[312elements]

I’ve been using the mark audio Maop 5’s in a few recent builds and they offer noticeably better performance in imaging and low level detail than the Pluvia. The units are matched and sold as pairs.

As far as beaming goes… the smaller for factor limits the beaming problem inherent with full range drivers.

I strongly suggest that you consider a helper woofer. The design I’m working on now implements four css LDW7 in a dual push push configuration (think kef blade).

My own personal experience suggests that crossing the full range between 150-400hz relieving it of the bass duties and limiting excursion opens up the mids considerably. This worked considerably better than relying on subwoofers to fill out the bottom. The sound stage depth is far greater.

 

[mhardy6647]

I have a lot of "fullrange" (extended range) single drivers here, in a variety of different enclosures (and, in full disclosure, plenty of others just sittin' in boxes in storage).
I very, very rarely listen to them.

So... yeah... Coax.



EDIT: The one big potential advantage of some "fullrange" drivers is wide midrange response of good sonic character -- but that enables the construction, typically, of a good three-way loudspeaker with exceptional midrange. These can be great, but way off-axis (so to speak, and no pun intended) vis-a-vis @rokr's query!

 

[nas]

EDIT: The one big potential advantage of some "fullrange" drivers is wide midrange response of good sonic character -- but that enables the construction, typically, of a good three-way loudspeaker with exceptional midrange. These can be great, but way off-axis (so to speak, and no pun intended) vis-a-vis @rokr's query!

mhardy, cannot agree more to this part of your comment!

BTW, I forgot the full-range on a budget king:

8″ SB20FRPC30-8 / Paper - Sbacoustics

sbacoustics.com

 

[Anton D]

Loving this thread, thank you all.

 

[nas]

Of course, there are different kinds of both types of drivers, different needs and so on, but let's look at two drivers, MARKAUDIO PLUVIA-7.2-HD and SB Acoustics 12PFCR25-4-COAX, they are the same size, cost about the same (the SB's will also need a crossover), compatible with same enclosure size and for this build the SB's plain look still works.

Almost forgot... There is the same Pluvia paper version. If you want to cheat a little then this is the same 7.2HD, just different cone material and color

 

[Pierre159]

good evening, sorry to entervene here, i see there is some specialist, i looking for a full range for a big room 55m² what to do advice me to buy build?

 

[312elements]

good evening, sorry to entervene here, i see there is some specialist, i looking for a full range for a big room 55m² what to do advice me to buy build?

I’m a big fan of full range speakere but SPL (big room) is not their forte. The more SPL you want, the higher the crossover to the subwoofers need to be. You can get tolerable enough deep bass with a huge enclosure, but IMO they’re really best when you’re listening to them in a small room with a dedicated listening spot.

 

[ppataki]

good evening, sorry to entervene here, i see there is some specialist, i looking for a full range for a big room 55m² what to do advice me to buy build?

For that you will need 12" or even better, 15" full range drivers

See this:

Fane Sovereign 12-250TC project measurements

One of my friends has built a pair of floorstanding loudspeakers using 12" Fane 12-250TC fullrange drivers. I am posting this on his behalf and with his permission. Cabinet is sealed with the below parameters: Made of 19mm baltic birch plywood using internal bracing (unfortunately I do not...

www.audiosciencereview.com

And this:

Fane 15-300TC 15" full range speaker based project

Let me share another project that I am venturing into :) A few months ago I managed to buy a pair of Fane 15" full range speakers - unfortunately production of these drivers was stopped earlier this year due to low demand; as far as I know I bought the last pair in Europe (if anybody knows...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Unfortunately the latter is no longer in production but you might be able to get your hands on it on the used market

For music you will not need a subwoofer, these beasts will be just fine, even from far field

EDIT: forgot to mention that you will need hell of a lot of DSP to tame the frequency response and potentially the phase response too
Dirac Live (or Acourate or Audiolens) is a must-have - or you can also go the manual path but you will need 30-50 filters per channel (you can read the above threads for more info)

 

[LTig]

good evening, sorry to entervene here, i see there is some specialist, i looking for a full range for a big room 55m² what to do advice me to buy build?

None, as @312elements wrote. I listened to a pair of fullrange speakers recently in a room smaller than 55 sqm. These were small floorstanders with a 4" driver in a back loaded horn, driven by a tube amp. Sound was flat, no bass, no dynamics, could not play decent loud, and last of all neither was there any magic sound quality as one would expect according to the hype. Even a meagre Genelec 8020 might have sound better in this room.

Keep also in mind that in a large room with long listening distance a pointsource is not required to hear low, mids and highs as coming from the same spot.

 

[Wolf]

Tang band W8-2314 - Coaxial 8" TB Speaker bambù 4 ohm

Tang band W8-2314 - Coaxial 8" TB Speaker bambù 4 ohm: 25mm tweeter with 8” woofer coaxial speaker design. Tweeter in aluminum and magnesium .

www.nonsolospeakers.com

Used these in my Monoculus build...

 

[Holy Spirit]

Over 20 years ago my neighbour "upgraded" to full range in quite large transmission line boxes if I remember correctly. Powered by 300B or similar SET (SET with normal speakers sounded fine to me, I am not a musician, I have not been trained to detect distortion). I agree with LTig's description: "Sound was flat, no bass, no dynamics, could not play decent loud, and last of all neither was there any magic sound quality as one would expect according to the hype." I would rather listen to a boombox or computer 2.1 speakers.

 

[Salt]

Main question is: where will the speaker have to produce how many SPL?

A fullrange's pro is a smooth response in phase and impulse, supposed no distorsions occur.
An x-over is essential (at least to compensate baffle-step), but not as complex as with coax.

If fullrange fits into TML or BR, it may go good as one-point-source.

For more soundpressure without increasing distorsion I would go for a fullrange and subwoofer design, as 312elements suggested.
With side-by-side woofers design the X-over is preferably below 200 Hz, front firering up to 400 Hz.

Vifa, Wavecor, Scan Speak, Visaton et al., they all produce wonderful fullrange for allmost every purpose in almost every size.

My most impressive encounter with fullrange and sub was and is the Manger MSW supported by 2 Scan Speak woofers (closed cabinet).
The intimity and (subjective, of course) precision of reproduction is one of best I ever listened to and bridged for me the gap from foil to cone driven speakers.

 

[nisse.P]

If one can live with the shortcomings of a 4” full range that has all been described above.
The latest Fatal pro 4fe42 with proper equalization to tame its rising frequency response and breakup can play quite loud before audible distortion kicks in. But with that said, it deserves a dedicated woofer ~250-300Hz and down to really shine as a micro PA.
And its frame is absolutely not sphere box friendly. Unless its a big sphere..

The above measured result is a small 1.7L closed box with passive attenuation of the rising response and two coats of LTS-50 from Visaton.

 

[nisse.P]

But.. I would love if you take “my idea” of using a small coaxial and extend the horn flare to a ball around the driver instead of a teardropisch shape.

Acoustic Horn Design – The Easy Way (Ath4)

But you're going to use an 18" woofer with ATHEX460? I'm interested in the real life compromises of going with a 15 or even a 12. Did you give up on Cardioid for lower mid/ upper bass? It will be all similar and these waveguides are pretty forgiving regarding a crossover frequency. I didn't...

www.diyaudio.com

And the latest version that’s on the attached image have a passive cardioid leakage to the side. The only measurement I have of that one is without flow resistance up against the leaking side (melamine foam).
And it’s not confirmed/measured completely with the foam that should attenuate ~ 800Hz and upwards but there’s potential.

 

[Pareto Pragmatic]

So, which one would you choose?

For non-technical reasons, the one I had not used previously. Try something different. So coax.

For technical reasons (already well discussed), coax.