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Erin excellent Video on a good Budget hifi

Waxx

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It's a way that will sound better than what a lot have for that price. But I agree with Amir that there are better and easier ways. Just an example, take the Kali LP8v2, that costs about 250€ for a pair and a Wiim Pro streamer/dac that costs the same, you can do better for less, with more eq band (graphic and peq) than with the amp and less to correct in the respons. And the bass respons is actually quiet decent so a sub amy not be needed. And a tower will always be better at this, that is true, but also more expensive.
 

Pareto Pragmatic

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And no, I don't remotely buy that 1/3 octave smoothing in that phone app is going to give you any kind of useful data to fix room modes. It simply is not the proper tool for the job (room modes can be as narrow as 1/12 octave). People should spend the $100 on microphone and use REW to measure and optimize the room properly. That will make a huge difference in how clean and open the system will be (fixing room modes).

Depends on the app and the frequency, and the phone mic.

For my phone, I would not trust ~45 hz and below. Because it is wrong. However, for higher than that the app I used to use DID show big spikes. So a section might look pretty flat, but above that it might say "129" or "65", which is the strong peak reading in that area. That was good enough for some simple eq and to check the effects. It gave no data on the magnitude of those spikes, btw. Just that something was there.

Those spike numbers were accurate in terms of frequency. Confirmed with REW at a later date.

So I think it can help. It certainly helped me, in a relatively accurate way (meaning better than by ear), before getting a calibrated mic and REW. But you have to know the limits of the tool. For phone apps and the mic on my phone, the limits mean I should NEVER use the phone app for sub measurements.

That said, I have to agree that sub integration is way trickier than people who have never done it might think. And much harder to learn how to do than people who now do it easily might remember.

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If I were to critique the video, which I skimmed at 2x speed, I would say front load the speaker and speaker set up, push the sub to the end, and mention that it will need some work to integrate (a second video would not be out of line, or pointing to the many sub set up videos that exist would work too.). Get the 2 channel right, then add sub.

I think the main issue is that the video did not go basic enough.. A lot of knowledge seemed to be assumed. Given this is likely most useful for new people, you can't go too basic.

If I were to make such a video? Likely 2 channel set up using experimentation and ear. That's first. Second, measurement of that set up and comparison with the a second set up (maybe toed in slightly and then right at dead center, or right against the wall and out 3 feet). And I would talk about phone apps, and non-calibrated mics with REW (what can be done and what cannot be done with those methods*) as well as what you could do with REW and a calibrated mic (briefly). Finally, adding a sub.

My reason for that is trying to think about where people who might follow such suggestions are coming from, and thinking about how to get them to follow a path that leads to better and better results. So choice and set up (basic speaker positioning information), measuring and simple EQ (seeing what's going on, how position affects that, and how to do some corrections), sub integration.


*short version: you have to treat the measurements as reliable (test retest gives the same results) but not particularly valid. So you can probably use them to look at variations in the 200-300 hz range, but never compare 200 to 5000hz.
 

ZolaIII

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@Waxx that's 250$ each for Kali LP 8 v2 or 500 for a pair. There are and cheaper 8" active monitors which will do the job same or with even better bass extension but most are balanced only and that's what make Kali's a good choice (broad availability and unbalanced inputs). It really depends what the prices and availability is where you are.
 

CleanSound

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If Costco is selling an $800 sub dedicated to Sonos systems, there's clearly a reasonable sized market for them.

Having a market for sub or not is not the debate, the debate is should have Erin have recommended subs, presumably that the video was for the very very newbie with very limited budget.

I don't think it's a bad video at all, but Erin could have done so without recommending a sub, instead use that money for better speakers. The speaker is by far the most important equipment to buy and I felt as if Erin skimp out on it.
 

jeffme

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@Waxx that's 250$ each for Kali LP 8 v2 or 500 for a pair. There are and cheaper 8" active monitors which will do the job same or with even better bass extension but most are balanced only and that's what make Kali's a good choice (broad availability and unbalanced inputs). It really depends what the prices and availability is where you are.
Any specific models you'd recommend?
 

ZolaIII

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Any specific models you'd recommend?
Not really, JBL 308P performs similar, M-Audio BX8 a bit worse but with even more bass extension, Yamaha HS8 doesn't stand out in anything except quality but you have to pay for it to start with. They are all as much as I know balanced inputs only. That's not a big problem if you are sure to stay on 2.0 and go trough standalone DAC or interface. They cost little more and that's it. But if you want to get sub's one day or want to go with tight budget with streamer then it becomes a bit of a burden. It really depends on the part of the world you live in. For example in India you can find JBL cheap and locally and rest costs a lot more and without real warranty as it's imported.
 

ta240

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Really, this notion that you just "add a sub" needs to stop. It complicates system design tremendously and forces a novice user in this case to become a speaker designer. For a theater, sure, you need one anyway. But for 2-channel listening, it is not a good idea.
Now, that is advice I wish I'd heard years ago. I eventually realized it on my own; however being inundated with comments and videos about how much better every system would sound with a subwoofer; I bought into it and fought the negatives for a long time.
A lot of the advice seems to be if it isn't sounding good with your sub then you need a better sub. I tried several different subs. And my favorite "If you one Sub isn't doing it right, try more!!" Because if integrating one was difficult then enjoy the challenge of more. With 2 subs when it sounded bad it really sounded bad. Yet most of the comments and videos I saw on integrating subwoofers really made it look pretty easy. Which circles the thought back to 'I guess I need a better subwoofer' :oops:

I can't stand it when I hear boominess all of a sudden from a sub. It just destroys the experience. Ton of enjoyment can be had from a speaker that properly goes down to 50 Hz with room modes fixed.
That was the ongoing battle. Too little bass and then on another track 'there's the subwoofer'.
If all someone is looking for is to feel the music and annoy the neighbors (like the cars that go by going 'boooommmmooommmooom' then get a sub or subs. If it is a home theater and you want to feel the explosions then get sub(s). But for real listening they can be such a nightmare.
Even using REW it was a fight and finally with the sub turned off I found I was getting pretty good down to the mid 30s and with a bit of boost to the lower frequencies it sounded good. I would not want to add up the dollars I spent chasing the subwoofer 'improvement'.

I think this is the reason a lot of subs that don't test well are considered 'musical'; because with less output and not going as deep they can't mess up the sound quite as easily.
 
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jhaider

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Having a market for sub or not is not the debate, the debate is should have Erin have recommended subs, presumably that the video was for the very very newbie with very limited budget.

Again, IMO Erin was catering to the general expectations of his cohort (and younger). It’s kind of like proposing a system without a streaming source - fine for some people in certain age cohorts, basically inconceivable for people in younger age cohorts.

I don't think it's a bad video at all, but Erin could have done so without recommending a sub, instead use that money for better speakers. The speaker is by far the most important equipment to buy and I felt as if Erin skimp out on it.

Fair point. The hardest thing about big cheap speakers is they’re mostly pretty cheap looking. Lots of nasty vinyl wrap. Those kids of speakers get exponentially uglier as they get bigger. So smaller speakers with a sub may be more aesthetically palatable. Also, a lot of people looking for budget systems may have living space constraints. So they can fit smaller speakers on a shelf or credenza etc and end up with decent placement but don’t have the floor space to put towers in reasonable spots.
 

ta240

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Again, IMO Erin was catering to the general expectations of his cohort (and younger). It’s kind of like proposing a system without a streaming source - fine for some people in certain age cohorts, basically inconceivable for people in younger age cohorts.
At that point it does question if it is an 'excellent' video because he is not informing them on how to do it best. Either accidentally or intentionally, he is telling them more of what they want to hear than what would be helpful.
It seems like his audience should be people looking for quality of sound, but his advice was more for those looking for quantity over quality.
 

CleanSound

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Fair point. The hardest thing about big cheap speakers is they’re mostly pretty cheap looking. Lots of nasty vinyl wrap. Those kids of speakers get exponentially uglier as they get bigger. So smaller speakers with a sub may be more aesthetically palatable. Also, a lot of people looking for budget systems may have living space constraints. So they can fit smaller speakers on a shelf or credenza etc and end up with decent placement but don’t have the floor space to put towers in reasonable spots.
Well, the video is about good sounding, good value budget system. Good sound and good quality and good looks all in one is luxury and that costs money. And if you are looking for a budget system, that's what you get.
 

jsrtheta

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While that's true, it can also lead to pretty big benefits. And then you realize the shortcomings and you add 3 more to have your bass cake and eat it around the room too. :)

Also, I think there's just a reality out there that today most people building audio systems at any budget think they need a sub. I think this may be a generational thing. GGs, Boomers, and late Gen Xers who grew up on 2-channel look at the complexity and say no thanks. Later Gen Xers and subsequent generations grew up with the sat-sub concept (the little Bose cubes were, what, late 1980s?) as their model of "better audio" and that set expectations. Why else do you think people are adding "subs" to Sonos setups? The only real puzzle is why there's no Apple "HomeBass" to integrate with HomePods. They'd need dedicated container ship lines to ship all the ones they'd sell.
Having been born in the 1950s, I'm as Baby Boomer as it gets. And I've been using subs in every system since 1990.

Not sure why I wouldn't.
 

amirm

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At that point it does question if it is an 'excellent' video because he is not informing them on how to do it best.
That is a major thing. He didn't build any of the systems he proposed. It was all a paper "design" with some theoretical EQs for the speaker. If he had attempted to build the system for real, he would have immediately found out the challenges of making that 2.1 system work in a room with just four filters and quick and easy.
 

Talisman

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I'm sorry Amir but I still think differently, even more so if you also consider the application of p and q filters (so you take at least one response measurement for granted)
You certainly won't get a ruler-flat response, but with the correct crossover and some filtering at least for the peaks you can get a fairly clean and pleasant response (for nulls there's little you can do with just one sub).
In any case I feel like giving some rough advice for integrating the sub without advanced tools and measurements but which doesn't destroy the whole experience.

- try to position the sub on the same wall as the speakers, possibly in the middle between them

- if you want to integrate a sub without a high pass filter to the speakers, set the sub with the lowest possible cut-off frequency, for example at 40hz, to avoid as much as possible a massive overlap of the medium-low frequencies

- start with the volume at half listening to the songs you know well, the sub must not be noticed, it must not interact with the songs without very low frequencies and in general there should be the feeling of natural listening. If you feel too much presence, lower the volume and try again, the sensation should only be an undefined filling at the bottom.

I realize this isn't scientific advice, but it can help
 
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Jeromeof

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I see Erin did a follow up video and mostly defended the criticism that this video was too simplistic. In that, he said he wanted to create something that is simpler enough for people to get into the hobby without 'scaring' them with REW measurements and more expensive microphones. Basically get them interested first with something that seems simple, then once they are interested, he hopes they would expand their knowledge.

And I tend to agree, but I also agree with @amirm criticism that adding a Sub within this video was a mistake, but in my opinion, someone coming into this hobby one of the benefits of the WiiM Amp is the fact that ultimately you could integrate a Subwoofer, so telling people that is an option up front means they are more like to buy the WiiM Amp now and then start playing with the 4-band PEQ (possible more bands soon and maybe Room Correction). I think once people start playing with those options they can easily be hooked, whether they go out and buy a subwoofer initial or not.
 

ta240

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And I tend to agree, but I also agree with @amirm criticism that adding a Sub within this video was a mistake, but in my opinion, someone coming into this hobby one of the benefits of the WiiM Amp is the fact that ultimately you could integrate a Subwoofer, so telling people that is an option up front means they are more like to buy the WiiM Amp now and then start playing with the 4-band PEQ (possible more bands soon and maybe Room Correction). I think once people start playing with those options they can easily be hooked, whether they go out and buy a subwoofer initial or not.
That would actually be the way to present it. Leave the subwoofer out of the initial list, recommend more expensive speakers to start and include a bit about 'with this amp, later you can add a subwoofer if you want more bass and are willing to go through all the setup to avoid the possible negatives'. Then do a follow-up video on the benefits and possible pitfalls of adding a subwoofer to a system for music.

Having it in his recommended setup from the start would likely also make anyone with a 2 channel setup think "I should add that subwoofer to my system". There are already countless videos out there touting the amazing improvement that can be achieved by adding a sub or subs for music.
 

DSJR

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As to Bose, that was an integrated system. It was not throwing a sub in the mix and hoping for the best.
Oh yes it was :D - I helped install a good few and that damned Acoustimass thumpy-boombox was sat EVERYWHERE except where it should have been - in between the tiny bassless cubes :facepalm: Why? I recall because that's what Bose suggested in their marketing blurb...
 

mdsimon2

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I think it was a good video for beginners, more so than a good video for budget hi-fi.

The Wiim amp is seriously limited from a subwoofer integration standpoint. Ignoring the limited EQ bands, the lack of delay and ability to set different crossover frequencies / slopes on the main / subs really limits the functionality for anyone with a bit more audio knowledge.

Michael
 

CleanSound

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At that point it does question if it is an 'excellent' video because he is not informing them on how to do it best.

He had a live stream and addressed many of the concerns brought forth about this video. I think we are prosecuting a man for a simple straight forward video out of dozens or hundred he made and made with good will and intention with a specific purpose for a specific audience.

You can only make some people happy some of the time, you can't make everyone happy all of the time, not even Mother Teresa nor Gandhi can. Sure this video can be a bit better, but I see no egregious crime committed.

If you look at the collective of all of his videos (and I am an avid viewer of), the whole of all his videos does more good than almost all the other reviewers on any platforms combined.
 

restorer-john

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I see Erin did a follow up video and mostly defended the criticism that this video was too simplistic.
What a funny world we live in.

Grown men watching other men who make puerile videos and have a long-winded discussion about that, only to have the man concerned make another video about the discussion. And it continues, ad nauseam. :facepalm:
 
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