Erin excellent Video on a good Budget hifi

[Jeromeof]

I think Erin has done an excellent job with his latest video about building a budget system:

I think Erin is the "New CheapAudioMan"

This video would have saved me allot of money.

Meanwhile Hans Beekhuyzen latest video talks about a €285 Ethernet filter - for everyone sanity I won't link to that video.

 

[CleanSound]

His budget is way too budget. He should of have recommended 3 tiers with wider budgets.

 

[amirm]

I think Erin has done an excellent job with his latest video about building a budget system:

He hasn't shown any such "building." He is throwing a paper design at people. No way you can throw a sub in the room and expect it to blend properly with another random speaker. Have him show the combined measurements of such a system in a room and then we can talk.

He is using most if not all of them for the speaker correction. That is just wrong. Room modes needs to be taken care of and they would easily cost you a pair of filters.

If you want such a budget system, forget about the sub. Get a speaker with smooth response that maybe needs a single PEQ filter. Then measure your room and optimize the bass using filters in WiiM Amp.

And no, I don't remotely buy that 1/3 octave smoothing in that phone app is going to give you any kind of useful data to fix room modes. It simply is not the proper tool for the job (room modes can be as narrow as 1/12 octave). People should spend the $100 on microphone and use REW to measure and optimize the room properly. That will make a huge difference in how clean and open the system will be (fixing room modes).

BTW, instead of bookshelf, I would get a low cost Tower speaker. They would be more sensitive, extracting more use out of the limited power of WiiM Amp. And you might get a bit deeper bass which would be another reason to not bother with a sub.

Really, this notion that you just "add a sub" needs to stop. It complicates system design tremendously and forces a novice user in this case to become a speaker designer. For a theater, sure, you need one anyway. But for 2-channel listening, it is not a good idea.

 

[CleanSound]

He hasn't shown any such "building." He is throwing a paper design at people. No way you can throw a sub in the room and expect it to blend properly with another random speaker. Have him show the combined measurements of such a system in a room and then we can talk.

He is using most if not all of them for the speaker correction. That is just wrong. Room modes needs to be taken care of and they would easily cost you a pair of filters.

If you want such a budget system, forget about the sub. Get a speaker with smooth response that maybe needs a single PEQ filter. Then measure your room and optimize the bass using filters in WiiM Amp.

And no, I don't remotely buy that 1/3 octave smoothing in that phone app is going to give you any kind of useful data to fix room modes. It simply is not the proper tool for the job (room modes can be as narrow as 1/12 octave). People should spend the $100 on microphone and use REW to measure and optimize the room properly. That will make a huge difference in how clean and open the system will be (fixing room modes).

BTW, instead of bookshelf, I would get a low cost Tower speaker. They would be more sensitive, extracting more use out of the limited power of WiiM Amp. And you might get a bit deeper bass which would be another reason to not bother with a sub.

Really, this notion that you just "add a sub" needs to stop. It complicates system design tremendously and forces a novice user in this case to become a speaker designer. For a theater, sure, you need one anyway. But for 2-channel listening, it is not a good idea.

I think he's recommendation is aimed at the very newbie with very limited budget to get started. At least that is the tone I am picking up with the fact that the most expensive speaker recommendation is still a fairly pretty crappy speaker at a very low budget.

 

[amirm]

I think he's recommendation is aimed at the very newbie with very limited budget to get started.

Precisely the people who should NOT mess with the complexity of throwing a sub in there. Keep the system simple: WiiM Amp, A pair of speakers. And some strategy for Room EQ. Subwoofer integration is for advanced users and even they may fail at it, creating sound that at time is boomy and just wrong.

 

[CleanSound]

Precisely the people who should NOT mess with the complexity of throwing a sub in there. Keep the system simple: WiiM Amp, A pair of speakers. And some strategy for Room EQ. Subwoofer integration is for advanced users and even they may fail at it, creating sound that at time is boomy and just wrong.

I would agree. When making any recommendations to any newbie, always emphasize the importance of the room, room measurements, placement and treatment.

But the only challenge to that is that those topics are very complex for a newbie and it takes a long time and frustration to get those things right when compared to few clicks on Amazon to order your first system and start listening.

Also, I noticed that Erin is a huge bass head, every single one of his videos he can't stop talking about how much he likes bass. So maybe there is an element of him getting carried away with his own preference.

All and all, he could of done that video differently. . .but, I think it's an OK video to get folks started listening to music, minus sub and I provide another option for a better speaker that those specific KEF.

 

[amirm]

If WiiM could add even simple bass auto-EQ, they would go a long way toward building an ideal amplifier.

 

[Descartes]

If WiiM could add even simple bass auto-EQ, they would go a long way toward building an ideal amplifier.

You should suggest that to them, I understand that they are very willing to listen to customers!

 

[Jeromeof]

If WiiM could add even simple bass auto-EQ, they would go a long way toward building an ideal amplifier.

Wiim have “room correction” as a feature coming very soon as well as an expanded number of filters. No details yet of what method they will use for the room correction.

 

[MCH]

Excellent video, thanks for sharing!

 

[jhaider]

Really, this notion that you just "add a sub" needs to stop. It complicates system design tremendously and forces a novice user in this case to become a speaker designer.

While that's true, it can also lead to pretty big benefits. And then you realize the shortcomings and you add 3 more to have your bass cake and eat it around the room too.

Also, I think there's just a reality out there that today most people building audio systems at any budget think they need a sub. I think this may be a generational thing. GGs, Boomers, and late Gen Xers who grew up on 2-channel look at the complexity and say no thanks. Later Gen Xers and subsequent generations grew up with the sat-sub concept (the little Bose cubes were, what, late 1980s?) as their model of "better audio" and that set expectations. Why else do you think people are adding "subs" to Sonos setups? The only real puzzle is why there's no Apple "HomeBass" to integrate with HomePods. They'd need dedicated container ship lines to ship all the ones they'd sell.

 

[Talisman]

I want to make a point in favor of Erin, it's true that a sub can ruin a good 2.0 sound sometimes, but when the system is at least high pass filtered to the speakers (as in the case of the wiim) it's likely that despite the room mode the result is overall more pleasant with bottom filling compared to small, bare bookshelf speakers. Or rather between the two errors I prefer to have some bass present even if perhaps not perfect rather than nothing below 50hz and a clean but empty sound

 

[amirm]

I want to make a point in favor of Erin, it's true that a sub can ruin a good 2.0 sound sometimes, but when the system is at least high pass filtered to the speakers (as in the case of the wiim) it's likely that despite the room mode the result is overall more pleasant with bottom filling compared to small, bare bookshelf speakers.

The sub is going to have its own slope as will the speaker. Each are likely to be in different position complicating the response even more. You can't rely on them blending like they would in a proper speaker system. You are likely to get wild response that requires measuring, optimization, moving the sub, changing delays, etc. Having a simple crossover is just not going to do the job. It is the starting point, not where you want to finish.

Or rather between the two errors I prefer to have some bass present even if perhaps not perfect rather than nothing below 50hz and a clean but empty sound

I can't stand it when I hear boominess all of a sudden from a sub. It just destroys the experience. Ton of enjoyment can be had from a speaker that properly goes down to 50 Hz with room modes fixed.

 

[amirm]

Later Gen Xers and subsequent generations grew up with the sat-sub concept (the little Bose cubes were, what, late 1980s?) as their model of "better audio" and that set expectations. Why else do you think people are adding "subs" to Sonos setups?

They are not. Vast majority of Sonos systems are deployed without a sub. As to Bose, that was an integrated system. It was not throwing a sub in the mix and hoping for the best.

 

[Deleted member 48726]

Precisely the people who should NOT mess with the complexity of throwing a sub in there. Keep the system simple: WiiM Amp, A pair of speakers. And some strategy for Room EQ. Subwoofer integration is for advanced users and even they may fail at it, creating sound that at time is boomy and just wrong.

Well. You can get better sound than without with the dreaded "sub crawl routine". You don't necessarily need to make it harder. By experimenting with placement the advantages of having a sub with basic DSP like the SVS app where you can dial down the worst boominess would outweigh not having a sub. Even though there will be room for improvement. At least by my experience.

I want to make a point in favor of Erin, it's true that a sub can ruin a good 2.0 sound sometimes, but when the system is at least high pass filtered to the speakers (as in the case of the wiim) it's likely that despite the room mode the result is overall more pleasant with bottom filling compared to small, bare bookshelf speakers. Or rather between the two errors I prefer to have some bass present even if perhaps not perfect rather than nothing below 50hz and a clean but empty sound

Exactly. The lesser evil. But better than not having a sub.

 

[jhaider]

They are not. Vast majority of Sonos systems are deployed without a sub. As to Bose, that was an integrated system. It was not throwing a sub in the mix and hoping for the best.

If Costco is selling an $800 sub dedicated to Sonos systems, there's clearly a reasonable sized market for them.

https://www.costco.com/.product.4000179942.html

"Vast majority" is your construct and irrelevant to my point.

And I think you're being too generous with the word "integrated" above. Yes, Bose ran the sub off the same amp channels as the sats. But there was no notion of where the midbass bin sat in relation to the sats, which is kind of important in optimizing the blend.

I can't stand it when I hear boominess all of a sudden from a sub. It just destroys the experience. Ton of enjoyment can be had from a speaker that properly goes down to 50 Hz with room modes fixed.

Again, I think this debate basically arises from a generational frame-of-reference [edit - "disconnect" didn't quite feel right].

 

[Sokel]

To tell the truth the only time I have heard a baritone to it's real proportions through a sub+mains system this system was installed by pros and it was a pair of 3-ways crossed to stereo subs.And it was neither cheap nor simple.

It's not only about the bad reputation that subs got by the will of various "integrators" where their real intention is to construct a 3way crossing them way to high or the bassheads HT people,it's about the corners that has to be cut leaving the proper mid-bass out of the picture.

We read absurd things,like having a sub at 2m away from mains crossed at 120Hz and then we listen and male voices seems like are coming not from a mouth but from a cave (baritones reach 70-80Hz easily with authority).

Don't think that a grand can cut it.

 

[ZolaIII]

Sub's help to get the weight out of the mains woffer's letting them to do main to uper bass better with faster and more accurate response there. They lower the THD of mains which can be heard and it especially helps in case of two way designs improving mids and uper mids where our hearing is most sensitive and most informations are. Future more it stresses out amplifier running mains which then needs less power to give. 2.1 systems won't do the job. Neither will 80 Hz or under crossover stress out most of the speakers nor will sum be entirely accurate. The 2.2 each sub paird with its own main speaker and put to each other or on top of each and crossed high but not to high that the sub's bleed to much in low mids does the job. Sum is then made naturally on it's own and separation also stays as far as it's possible. Integration of sub's is not easy nor straight forward for many reasons especially in 2.2 case and main reason is lack of proper hardware support. Most things have only one L+R sub out and if it's replicated X times it really doesn't help. Placement is most important for mains and to get highs as right as possible. In order to have sub cancel room refractions in form of first peak averaged (and improvement regarding second and third including three deeps) concealed it needs to be placed about 1 m directly in front of listening spot (centered). No one will go for that. You can use opposite firing sub's to conceal each other but that's; hard to tune up, very expensive and not efficient way. Best way no matter how you look at it is narrow PEQ peek correction to actual peeks shown in waterfal plots so that you cancel not only peak but it's resonance also (with as optimal placement as possible and as allowed by the situation of course) as possible. It's not that hard to achieve with cuple of PEQ's and represents single largest improvement you can make.

 

[Ron Texas]

Precisely the people who should NOT mess with the complexity of throwing a sub in there. Keep the system simple: WiiM Amp, A pair of speakers. And some strategy for Room EQ. Subwoofer integration is for advanced users and even they may fail at it, creating sound that at time is boomy and just wrong.

I have been saying this for some time now. "Just add a sub" is far more difficult than it looks. It took me a long time to get it right.

 

[restorer-john]

I can't stand it when I hear boominess all of a sudden from a sub. It just destroys the experience. Ton of enjoyment can be had from a speaker that properly goes down to 50 Hz with room modes fixed.

Gotta agree with you on this. 'Boominess' is mid bass, easy to locate. If I can hear and locate a 'sub' woofer, it has failed.