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Entreq "signal grounding" Measurements

tomelex

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Thank for the test Amir, I tried to come up with other ideas and could not.

It reminds me of when I was visiting an electrical shop that repaired cryptographic electronics gear and some one there had read somewhere that ground was like a large metal mass so they connected one end of a wire to the equipment chassis and the other end to one of those large 20 drawers metal roll about (on rubber wheels) tool chests you always see motor heads using. I came in to help out on a problem and I said what exactly are you doing that for, and the guy told me the story about a large metal mass. Well, I said it was good there was no short circuit to the chassis of their crypto gear because whomever touched it would have been the return path to trip the circuit breaker and probably might not feel too good afterwards.

There is a lot of misinformation out there about grounds among folks who know just enough to be dangerous....literally.
 

RayDunzl

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That sort of thing will create enemies, don't you know, you rapscallion?

That depends entirely on how you go about communicating your findings.

Ultimately, Engineering/Design (NEC) would rather hear about whatever it was from me than from the Customer (Baby Bells, Sprint, etc).

---

Nice little meter, Amir. I've often lusted for one.

Here's a lesser one for $30. I might get it.
 
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RayDunzl

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That's a good find. It is amazing bargain at that price.

I'm reluctantly doing my part to keep 800 million Chinese employed. The Fluke is $674.

On the other hand, I want to "Make America Great Again", so, go figure.
 

Thomas savage

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You need to connect it to your pre amp, then with music playing test the ground voltages with and without it in place. Test the analog output going to your amps... It could well be putting ' noise' into the system, you might not hear it but is it not extra load for your amps? This ' noise ' ' could' provide some advantage in sound stage imo, much like vinyl does imo. It gives your brain points of reference and thusly creates context for the music to sit in.

You must listen too!

Why you ask...,

Testing will be dismissed by many if you don't humour them even if you feel this is not strictly warranted.

That said, I am off to my hifi.. Taking out my ground boxes that made little or no difference as they might be doing some harm.

Thanks!
 

March Audio

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Thanks Amir. So in this configuration the box can only be detrimental to equipment performance. No surprises there.

So you are not meant to connect screen from all your components via separate wires to the box?


Once connected, your box will start work, but it will take few minutes to you hear a difference in sound. These because it take a while before the grounding have start clean up. Note.Put Feets under your groundbox will improve the result. It will continue sound better and better the coming hours. After ca 24 hours you reach nearly full effect. You can not do a A-B test directly with connect / disconnect because it take some time before the drain start flow and also when disconnect some time before the stay voltages build up the magnetic fiels.


I know we are supposed to be giving this a fair go but I am really struggling not to giggle.

So if i understand the manual correctly the answer to my question above is "no".
 
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tr1ple6

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You need to connect it to your pre amp, then with music playing test the ground voltages with and without it in place. Test the analog output going to your amps... It could well be putting ' noise' into the system, you might not hear it but is it not extra load for your amps? This ' noise ' ' could' provide some advantage in sound stage imo, much like vinyl does imo. It gives your brain points of reference and thusly creates context for the music to sit in.

You must listen too!

Why you ask...,

Testing will be dismissed by many if you don't humour them even if you feel this is not strictly warranted.

That said, I am off to my hifi.. Taking out my ground boxes that made little or no difference as they might be doing some harm.

Thanks!
+1. Most of the folks on WBF only care about 'differences' they perceive so a subjective listen will be essential if they are to take measurements seriously.
 

Thomas savage

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There might be a vibration sink element to these too and electro fog... Who knows how you measure for that...,

The problem is how vulnerable we are to physiological effects, I am heavily invested in cables but having recently tried a new type I thought I heard a good deal of difference when I swapped over( lower noise floor better image ) Not all positive I have to say but after ' burn in' 99% of which was done while I was not present I had a critical listen.

I liked the result but was not that impressed, when I put my cables back in I could tell little or no difference.

So logic tells me something else is going on in the head.

I plan to buy mogimi cables at some point and swap all mine out ( power and ic) see what happens. I will start a thread on this, depending on the results it might end up being a ' cable therapy ' room. I won't let the money I spent cloud my judgment, if I wasted my money I will admit it.

Who knows but once my subjective appraisal is complete we can look into the reasons why using what this forums about. Reasoned argument backed by known facts and respected theory.

Plus you can all take the piss out of me :D as that's what I find fun:D
 
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DonH56

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Good grief. Kudos to Amir for measuring this without falling on the floor laughing. As for potential positive sonic effects, the obvious implication is that the added noise somehow improves the perceived sound if not the actual signal. Google "noise decorrelation" or "dither".
 
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A couple of years ago I saw an Entreq disassembled, consisted of copper plates buried in some sort of sand/powder.
 

RayDunzl

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A couple of years ago I saw an Entreq disassembled, consisted of copper plates buried in some sort of sand/powder.

As I remember, the most reasonable/interesting speculation was that the 'sand' was granulated magnetite, although that supposition may have been made upon the dissection of a chinese clone.

magnetite-iron-ore-1738673.jpg


For example, Genuine Swedish Magnetite powder can be obtained here.
 

iridium

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I totally understand how this works. People are willing to spend fortunes [$1 000000000] on retrieving every detail from a source. All those tiny details become harsh to the brain, therefore you inject some noise as a smoooooother. Bring on the mega-dollar solid state and the speaker cones that are so stiff that you can walk across them. With this ~BOX~ there is no need for those pesky vacuum tubes and paper cones.

iridium.
 
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amirm

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So you are not meant to connect screen from all your components via separate wires to the box?
Well, in my testing I only have one "piece of audio equipment" and that is my audio analyzer. So it was connected to "all the components." :)

They make boxes with multiple outlets. This one only has one pin and I think it is meant to be connected to the pre-amp where all the other inputs would come in.

This is one of their larger boxes as AXPONA:

index.php


Mine only has one of those connectors in the back as opposed to three here:

index.php


And here is the RCA connector connecting it to the one unit:

index.php


So my assumption is that one would connect one of their RCA wires to this and it could only go to one place.
 
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amirm

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+1. Most of the folks on WBF only care about 'differences' they perceive so a subjective listen will be essential if they are to take measurements seriously.
As I have mentioned there, my purpose with this device and motivation for it was measurements. Anyone can listen and many have shared their opinion in that regard.

Whether they accept the measurement or not is not what motivates me. I like us to have data when we say something doesn't work. And the person asks, "well, have you ever used it?"
 

RayDunzl

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As I have mentioned there, my purpose with this device and motivation for it was measurements.

You've done bench tests. But those measurements don't reflect it's intended application, attached (for example) to a preamp in a working audio system.

How hard is it to attach one cable, and measure a sweep for response and distortion or whatever else you have up your sleeve?

PS: Your images don't show up in the prior post.
 
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NorthSky

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I have just read this thread. I also read some, most, @ the other site.
I appreciate a simple box with one wire and what I saw inside the box from the other site.

Anything that can embellish our music joy is good in my book, and the price of admission is not important because it is relative.
True, the measurements are always fun to check, and in the context of understanding their meaning in real life.

Looking for that balance in life ...
 

Blumlein 88

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You've done bench tests. But those measurements don't reflect it's intended application, attached (for example) to a preamp in a working audio system.

How hard is it to attach one cable, and measure a sweep for response and distortion or whatever else you have up your sleeve?

PS: Your images don't show up in the prior post.

Yes, I agree with Ray here. You need at least a basic system, and connect it to the box. Then do measurments of the output of that system. At least at the pre-amp output level if not speaker level outputs.
 

DonH56

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Chances are the measurement system has more dynamic range than any system into which he'd place it. Just end up measuring the preamp's noise and distortion floor. Why would you expect different results?

I am also curious why it would take such a long time to hear any differences (didn't one of the reviewers said it would take hours to "settle in"?)
 
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