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Entreq "signal grounding" Measurements

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amirm

amirm

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You've done bench tests. But those measurements don't reflect it's intended application, attached (for example) to a preamp in a working audio system.

How hard is it to attach one cable, and measure a sweep for response and distortion or whatever else you have up your sleeve?
It is a pain in the neck as my instrumentation is one one side of room, and my main audio system on the other. I would have to lug all of my gear over there. I would do it if I thought it would matter but so far, technically speaking, I can't think of a reason to justify the hassle.

I do have my other workstation that has a Rotel pre-amp. If I get the time, I will give that a shot.

PS: Your images don't show up in the prior post.
Are you still having problem and do others not see them either?
 

RayDunzl

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didn't one of the reviewers said it would take hours to "settle in"?

From the product manual:

"Place your groundbox on the floor or in the rack, but make sure there are a distance of at least 15-20 cm to other units. Once connected, your box will start work, but it will take few minutes to you hear a difference in sound. These because it take a while before the grounding have start clean up.

Note.Put Feets under your groundbox will improve the result.

It will continue sound better and better the coming hours. After ca 24 hours you reach nearly full effect.

You can not do a A-B test directly with connect / disconnect because it take some time before the drain start flow and also when disconnect some time before the stay voltages build up the magnetic fiels."
 

RayDunzl

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Are you still having problem and do others not see them either?

I just see the [(box)IMG] tag or whatever it is.

index.php


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May 7 - the images have magically appeared for me...

Even what I thought was an image of the image placeholder has turned into the original image, above.
 
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Blumlein 88

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Chances are the measurement system has more dynamic range than any system into which he'd place it. Just end up measuring the preamp's noise and distortion floor. Why would you expect different results?

I am also curious why it would take such a long time to hear any differences (didn't one of the reviewers said it would take hours to "settle in"?)

24 hours. And while I agree with what you suppose, it is against the actual use of the device. I don't see anyway it could contribute there, but not show up in this testing. But fairness would suggest testing it as it is really used. If it works like we all think it does, then it still will do nothing other than perhaps add a bit of noise.
 

RayDunzl

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I would have to lug...

Science ain't easy.

Have you tried wheels?

Scope%20cart%20&%20test%20equipment.jpg


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PS: I bought the little ammeter and a pair of fuses for the ammeter function on my Fluke 87 (that I liberated from Nortel as they collapsed).
 
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Speedskater

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The only thing that matters is the system output.
I would make the measurements at the speaker terminals of the power amplifier.
 
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amirm

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The only thing that matters is the system output.
I would make the measurements at the speaker terminals of the power amplifier.
I have made measurements at the output of my "virtual" pre-amp. Measuring against the power amp is more work and I don't see it making a difference.
 

Thomas savage

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Come on amir put some effort in :D

If it acts like a aerial on your measurement device it will do the same what ever it's connected to in the hifi.

Does this increase in noise put extra ' load' on your amps?

If it's not taking anything away, not cleaning any unwanted non musical artefacts it's a waste of time to me at least. My ears told me this though when i had one of their top units at home.
 

iridium

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I have made measurements at the output of my "virtual" pre-amp. Measuring against the power amp is more work and I don't see it making a difference.

Of course it is not working; you have not paid several Feng Shui masters 10s of thousands of dollars to analyze the position of the house, room, and components!
You are probably going to have to jack-up your house and move it to a different site on your property.

iridium.
 

NorthSky

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Well, in my testing I only have one "piece of audio equipment" and that is my audio analyzer. So it was connected to "all the components." :)

They make boxes with multiple outlets. This one only has one pin and I think it is meant to be connected to the pre-amp where all the other inputs would come in.

This is one of their larger boxes as AXPONA:

index.php


Mine only has one of those connectors in the back as opposed to three here:

index.php


And here is the RCA connector connecting it to the one unit:

index.php


So my assumption is that one would connect one of their RCA wires to this and it could only go to one place.

The pics don't show up Amir.
 
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amirm

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NorthSky

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NorthSky

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I just see the [(box)IMG] tag or whatever it is.

index.php

Now it's the second time, because I don't see Ray's picture either.

EDIT: Oh, I just realized now that Ray also cannot see the pics I just mentioned (three of them).
He was just giving an example of what both of us are seeing (not seeing).
And I tried everything to open your pictures (3) but to no avail.
First time ever here @ ASR.

EDIT 2: So, Ray and Bob cannot see your last three pic attachments.
But Don and Paul can.
 
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PaulyT

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Y'know, I think the entire reason folks who create and market products like this request a 24 (or longer) "burn-in" or whatever, is precisely to discourage instant a/b switching in case you discover it does nothing at all, or to give them an "out" if you did. Either that or to make sure you keep it beyond the warranty/return period. :rolleyes:

(Ok yeah I'm a skeptic for sure, but I'm fascinated and impressed that there's actually an honest effort by Amir to try testing this. Following with interest...)


FYI I see the pictures just fine...
 

fas42

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I'm very much aware of the type of 'noise' that normal systems are often infested with, that this sort of device is supposedly capable of helping to eliminate. However, I've evolved my own techniques for cleaning up this particular area of concern, which don't require expensive add-ons to be part of the package; of course, if one doesn't have a DIY attitude to such things then a purchased gizmo may seem the best solution, the only things that then matter are whether it does work or not to a reasonable degree, and if the money paid is worth it to the individual.
 

NorthSky

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Searching around:

1. "The Entreq Silver Tellus is a wooden box, the size and weight of a small power amp. It contains inert minerals and a grounding plate."
AudiogoN Forums: Entreq Silver Tellus grounding/earthing system

Whether it actually FIXES anything is another question entirely. I guess if your incoming power ground is so poor that a box of dirt with a metal plate in it improves your sound, you've got serious power issues - a true power conditioner may be in order. I don't live in an apartment which may share grounds with hordes of other equipment though....looking around the web at prices makes me think of audiophile cables, at which point I start losing my hope for humanity....just my 2 cents.

Oh, and here's a discussion about possible safety issues:

http://www.psaudio.com/vanilla/discu...d-conditioners
_________

2. The author of the post on sighted vs blind ABX testing of the Entreq ground box vs no treatment audio files
Entreq Tellus grounding,in england - Page 37 post# 365
went on to post the following:

Entreq Tellus grounding,in england - Page 38 post#375

'OK, I did some analysis of the starting black segment. First test I did which I am not showing is comparing the captured noise between different trials. This showed some differences so even in digital domain, variations exist as expected.

I then compared the with and without Entreq in track 3. To make sure I have the same analysis applied to both, I compared the segments from 0.5 seconds to 1.5 seconds. Here is the outcome:

https://amirviews.smugmug.com/photos...JWDHGKG-XL.png

As noted, the red graph is without Entreq. Addition of Entreq has substantially reduces harmonics of mains power at 120 and 240 Hz. The picture reverses above 500 Hz however with all the noise peaks being lower without Entreq.

So there is measurable difference. But the cause and whether it is considered an improvement requires further analysis'

_________

3. What you can measure is not important, and the important cannot always be measured...

There is quite a lot of truth in that sentence, even if it is not completely correct.
We at Entreq trust more what we hear and experience than what the gauges tell us. If this sounds better than anything else, then it is. It is that simple, even if you perhaps cannot explain it scientifically with measurements.

We remember back in 70, when all should be measure in lab. At that time it was DIN 45 500 that tell us everything. It was DIN Watt, IM dist, HM dist etc,etc.Ifit not measure good enough, it been solved with negative feedback and all good .
Many times the stuff sounds bad, but if the measurement was so good, it must be good, that´s it.
It was a sensation when Matti Otaala from Uleaborg university explain why some amps that only give 20 W by Din 45500 sound so much more powerfull than amps that give 200w by same norm.
What we mean is that we sometimes dont know what to meassure and what make sence.
And for you who say everything can be messured, could you kindly inform us of how you exactly measure the speed of an object in motion ?

Over the years Entreq has consistently recieved plaudits from around the world for its innovative products. The quality of design, craftmanship and most importantly, musicality, have been recognised as the heart beat of every product.

We are proud and delighted to say that the editors and writers of " The Stereo Times " have awarded the accolade " Most Wanted Component 2012 " to not only our entire line of Apollo cable products, but in addition, our current top of the line Silver Tellus Ground Station. These awards are reserved solely for exceptional products that offer only the highest standards of performance
."
 
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amirm

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So I made a few more measurements. One of the issues with measuring noise is having the probe itself capture them. To avoid that, we use what is called a "differential probe." As the name indicates, it measures what is different between the two wires. Most noise that couples into the cable will be the same on both leads so will be reduced a lot in level.

Here is what happens when I use the differential probe and measure what is going on between the chassis ground of my analyzer and the negative pin of the balanced audio connection:

tek00005.png


So we have little noise.

The next one is an odd measurement. I measured the noise between the analyzer chassis again, but the other pin is touching the wood part of the terminal coming out of the back of Entreq. I am using this as a baseline of what noise is bleeding into the measurement system physically:

tek00003.png


As expected, we now see some noise because the end of the cable is essentially dangling "in the air" next to Entreq.

Now I connect the probe to the metal part of the Entreq terminal with the wire moving a fraction of an inch:

tek00004.png


That's right. The moment I connect the terminal to the Entreq, the amount of noise that the system measures goes up. This is consistent with the previous measurements that showed noise being picked up by Entreq.

Now there can be two reasons for this increased noise. The stuff that is in Entreq and the length of wire. The latter will act like an antenna and feed noise into measurement system.

To tease that out, I just connected the probe to the lead of my multi-meter which is sitting on my desk, unpowered:

tek00006.png


Now we get even more noise than what Entreq produced. That is to be expected because my meter probe is longer than the length of wire that is inside Entreq.

So coming from an entirely different path, we see the same workings. All that is going on here is a piece of wire part of it inside Entreq, and part of it outside leading to our audio equipment. Its characteristics only allow it to pick up noise, not eliminate or reduce it in any manner.

What say you?
 

RayDunzl

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What say you?

I'm seeing 2.4755kHz on the (last) display, but by itself, that wave looks like what happens at 60Hz.

I also see many frequencies in the wave...

5v (?) per division vertical, what's the time per division horizontally? (Sorry, I'm not familiar with these new-fangled scopes)

4ms per division? - yes - and the main wave is 60Hz at 16.67ms/cycle

--

Actually 3 different frequency readings... Trying to confuse me?
 
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