End Game DIY Loudspeakers

[thewas]

I see that Kimmosto has already answered this question while I was typing.
But if you are really interested in learning more about how the cardioid pattern was achieved, its impact on performance and some construction details from long back, please take a look here:
KS-1804 mk2

Thank you, I don't see there though measurements below 200 Hz which are important to show how well the cardioid pattern was achieved?

Some of us consider Kimmosto's old, now non-existent website as a gold mine of speaker design information and try to learn from it in whatever we can
I see that some people here in this thread disregard the opinions of someone as experienced in this field as Kimmosto and think that whatever brands they hold as idols/ideals are the best designs. Well, I can only pity them. Let ignorance be bliss.

I hope you don't mean me as I didn't anywhere criticise his loudspeaker designs, on the contrary I even praised his contribution to the DIY community above.

By the way for the interested, the member @ctrl has also done some very thorough simulation and analyis of cardioid speaker radiation via lateral slots:

"Analysis" of cardioid speaker radiation via lateral slots - like D&D 8c

First off, I want to temper expectations, I'm certainly not a cardioid radiation expert - but will do my best. I can only touch on a few topics and if something interesting comes up I will expand the post if necessary. Index 1. Does it work? 2. Comparison speaker with slots to "normal" speaker...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[voodooless]

At this point I could finally ask why we ended up comparing DIY and commercial, and especially 8361 or Blade to DIY? Topic is "End Game DIY Loudspeakers", and in that context both 8361 and Blade are irrelevant or just some implementations IRL we can study and partly imitate - or NOT if they are not close enough to endgame.

Whatever is endgame is probably different to everybody. People make other compromises.

Anyway, here is snapshot from one event where people compared Blade and very conventional 2.5-way, possible for almost any DIYer without much problem or challenge in acoustical XO design or manufacturing. Guess how many listener evaluated Blade better?

Sighted, with knowledge that one of the two was a DIY speaker? I'm pretty sure that 2.5-way sounds excellent, but it's hardly an objective comparison, especially if the event was about showing off DIY speakers. Then all participants were already bias from the get-go.

 

[kimmosto]

Because I really appreciate your great contribution to the DIY community with your superb VituixCAD software I don't think that with such argumentative style you are doing yourself or the DIY hobby a favour, maybe you should reconsider it.

Speaker market is already very difficult for other than big mass manufacturers such as Genelec, Kef, JBL etc using molds and cheap Chinese components and manufacturing. This forum should be more open for possibility that other manufacturers and DIY can do the same or even exceed sound quality. At the moment small manufacturers using local manufacturing cannot compete anymore so shouldn't we look wider and not hype too much mass manufactures until all small ones are dead and big ones can name their price. Especially DIY area should be totally free from fanboys of some commercial brands.

 

[kimmosto]

I'm pretty sure that 2.5-way sounds excellent, but it's hardly an objective comparison, especially if the event was about showing off DIY speakers. Then all participants were already bias from the get-go.

What is objective comparison? Blind test with automatic changer? That was just an event where people listened many speakers including Genelec 1236, 8361, Kef Blade and two Taipuus, had some snack and beer. That is the biggest retailer of Kef and Genelec, and probably the best showroom in Finland so please do not try to make this biased.

 

[voodooless]

This forum should be more open for possibility that other manufacturers and DIY can do the same or even exceed sound quality.

Yes, they can, but they are far and few between. And the few that can will be very much appreciated. But not just anybody can do this. And that is the issue here. You can't just come here with: "I have 30K budget for DIY, surely I can make something endgame". That's just not how it works.

Especially DIY area should be totally free from fanboys of some commercial brands.

What's up with the fanboyism? You can certainly appreciate both...

 

[Vineeth Kumar V]

Thank you, I don't see there though measurements below 200 Hz which are important to show how well the cardioid pattern was achieved?

I just posted whatever details I know about this build. Maybe Kimmosto can answer your question if is interested/feels inclined to do so. But yeah. I couldn't find any measurements below 200Hz.

I hope you don't mean me as I didn't anywhere criticise his loudspeaker designs, on the contrary I even praised his contribution to the DIY community above.

Sorry for typing up that in the response to you. I didn't mean you. In general, I personally don't mind disagreeing with anyone, even experts. Disagreement is a critical part of scientific enquiry and progress. What I was remarking on is about utter disregard for expert opinion and fanboy 'ism' to the extent of idolizing what they know/consider as the best-ever design that I saw in some posts. Well, that kind of attitude has never got anybody anywhere good in my opinion/experience, especially in science and engineering. Anyway, it is irrelevant to this thread and discussion. Just hoping we all learn from each other and keep an open mind..

By the way for the interested, the member @ctrl has also done some very thorough simulation and analyis of cardioid speaker radiation via lateral slots:

"Analysis" of cardioid speaker radiation via lateral slots - like D&D 8c

First off, I want to temper expectations, I'm certainly not a cardioid radiation expert - but will do my best. I can only touch on a few topics and if something interesting comes up I will expand the post if necessary. Index 1. Does it work? 2. Comparison speaker with slots to "normal" speaker...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Thank you. I am a regular visitor to this forum and try to learn as much as I can. So I had read this thread before. And ctrl's posts are among my favourite ones here

 

[Rednaxela]

At this point I could finally ask why we ended up comparing DIY and commercial

So, for all the DIY experts here, what would be your recommendation for an end game DIY loudspeaker that would equal or exceed what we on ASR would consider to be the best available on the retail market?

 

[kimmosto]

Thank you, I don't see there though measurements below 200 Hz which are important to show how well the cardioid pattern was achieved?

That individual was never measured outdoors. Just indoors with time window showing level and shape of directivity with quite much smooth and not at perfect far field.

Spinorama is equalized at LF because actual far field was not available. Horn section >400 Hz is measured in hor plane only so weight of rear horn is not full.

 

[kimmosto]

What's up with the fanboyism?

It correlates with low intelligence, low criticism and narrow view to reality according the best available subjective science

 

[voodooless]

It correlates with low intelligence, low criticism and narrow view to reality according the best available subjective science

That may be, but there isn’t a lot of that here…

 

[kimmosto]

That may be, but there isn’t a lot of that here…

One Genelec fan boy can damage whole forum and reputation of the brand. We've seen that in our local forum.

 

[Ra1zel]

There is little evidence that phase shift is audible in-room, and ever tinier evidence that phase shift has a negative effect on listener preference.

And yet Genelec after internal research came to conclusion that lowering group delay at low frequency is a worthwhile effort and made new firmware that adds delay as a price for more linear phase down low.

I see someone posted project Area 51 originally posted on Facebook group "DIY Loudspeaker Project Pad", exactly a good example of DIY surpassing commercial efforts.

I also see comments about spinorama and Klippel, guess what people, you don't need Klippel NFS to make ANSI/CTA-2034 compliant measurements, DIYers make valid spins for some time now.

Now consider this
Speaker: Genelec 8361A
Preference score: 6.8
Made by: Genelec with ~200 employees

Speaker: March Sointuva
Preference score: 7.0
Made by: Alan March

Seriously speakers are not magic that Genelec and KEF monopolized.

Also consider what I said previously, most innovative commercial projects started as DIY efforts of either one man or a group of friends. D&D is one of them.

 

[abdo123]

Speaker: March Sointuva
Preference score: 7.0
Made by: Alan March

Actually Alan got the high frequency balance ''wrong'' the first time with his measurement method, he used Erin's data to fix it which was quite the ''scandal'' at the time.

 

[Clavius]

My humble contribution; Commercial project but started out as DIY.
Measurements taken at Seas using Klippel by Håvard Sollien R&D manager, active speaker w FIR DSP.
This is a proof of concept set using a 12" coax, I will follow up with actual Klippel printout as soon as we've finished r&d.
Today, by using available computer simulation software like VCAD, it's entirely possible to come up with good designs on a shoestring budget.
OEM brands like f.i. Fouraduio, Powersoft etc make some excellent DSP amps with FIR capability. So caveat is, you must have access to some accurate measuring facility or equipment and most likely OEM products for active use, with passive I would say it's entirely possible to equal or better a commercial effort.

 

[voodooless]

Now consider this
Speaker: Genelec 8361A
Preference score: 6.8
Made by: Genelec with ~200 employees

Speaker: March Sointuva
Preference score: 7.0
Made by: Alan March

Seriously speakers are not magic that Genelec and KEF monopolized.

So, how much of the drivers did Alan actually develop and produce? How many models does Match offer? This is hardly a fair comparison.

 

[abdo123]

That individual was never measured outdoors. Just indoors with time window showing level and shape of directivity with quite much smooth and not at perfect far field.
View attachment 254791
View attachment 254792

Spinorama is equalized at LF because actual far field was not available. Horn section >400 Hz is measured in hor plane only so weight of rear horn is not full.
View attachment 254793

This is absolutely incredible, why don't you share more of your designs on this forum?

 

[kimmosto]

one event where people compared Blade and very conventional 2.5-way

One guy who owns Kef R11 and very impressive listening room at home reported his listening impressions about this comparison in some Kef owner group in FB. Immediately few "objectivist" members started to underestimate his comments as subjective blaa-blaa. That kind of religious reaction with great blind & deaf faith to brand and it's engineers without a second experience with that situation, low knowledge about speaker concepts and their features/behavior in different use case is quite typical. Unfortunately that is quite common also here where many/reviewed speakers are watched though graphs measured as quasi-anechoic with Klippel NFS, and whole correlation with reality is based on some limited study 20-30 years ago in some other listening room(s) with some other speakers and other listener locations. Absolutely with zero information and facts about the speaker and case, somewhere else than in front of NFS. Requirement of objectivity in discussion is not far from joke.

 

[Plcamp]

My humble contribution; Commercial project but started out as DIY.
Measurements taken at Seas using Klippel by Håvard Sollien R&D manager, active speaker w FIR DSP.
This is a proof of concept set using a 12" coax, I will follow up with actual Klippel printout as soon as we've finished r&d.
Today, by using available computer simulation software like VCAD, it's entirely possible to come up with good designs on a shoestring budget.
OEM brands like f.i. Fouraduio, Powersoft etc make some excellent DSP amps with FIR capability. So caveat is, you must have access to some accurate measuring facility or equipment and most likely OEM products for active use, with passive I would say it's entirely possible to equal or better a commercial effort.

Well these are interesting results, I would not have thought it possible with a DIY available coax. Look forward to any more results as you complete your work, especially IM distortion.

 

[Clavius]

Well these are interesting results, I would not have thought it possible with a DIY available coax. Look forward to any more results as you complete your work, especially IM distortion.

It's a BMS* driver so pretty much available as DIY, this sample is not 'made to order'. I actually have no idea if IM data is available where we measure. Klippel has the SIM module for this and we've never used it or asked if available in the lab. XO to CD is at 1.1k so operating range of cone is fairly limited, excursion is extremely small compared to small commercial domestic coax:es. This particular driver actually has waveguide optimized cone that follows the contour of the built in horn giving a nice pattern control.
You do have to apply some tricks for the XO to work like this however



*Model number is in chart

 

[Mr. Widget]

That's a pretty neat design!

I don't really think DIY'ers can't make an endgame system. It's just not that easy, takes knowledge and resources. Only a few are capable of creating really good systems, and those people spend considerable time and resources on these projects. Not just anyone can build these systems. Neither can just any company build an endgame speaker. Only a few really do.

+1

I suppose a knowledgable and motivated individual given the financial resources and time can DIY a truly end game system (whatever that means to them), but it will be a truly heroic effort.