End Game DIY Loudspeakers

[Mr. Widget]

It has been remarked that if one selects his own components, builds his own enclosure, and is convinced he has made a wise choice of design, then his own loudspeaker sounds better to him than does anyone else's loudspeaker.

-Beranek's Law, from his book on acoustics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leo_Beranek

One of my favorite quotes... and Acoustics is still relevant and an excellent source of information, though much of it requires math that is simply beyond me.

 

[phoenixdogfan]

I think a copycat version of the March Audio Sointuva, which is a small sealed box made with off the shelf drivers, could be duplicated easily enough, as these things go, and would yield a two way passive box speaker that's about as good as the breed can be.

 

[Absolute]

In my eyes it makes no sense trying to DIY end-game speakers if you choose the same restraints a commercial manufacturer have to make. The advantage of going DIY is that you can go way bigger, heavier and attack issues with brute force instead of extreme technicality. Going end-game in a dedicated large room with small shoe-box sized speakers sounds extremely narrow minded to me. Stuff like the Genelec shoe-boxes are end-game only in terms of tonality.
They aren't end-game level in terms of dynamics and directivity.

The advantage of going DIY or Do-it-by-others is that you can deal with issues with the whole picture in mind instead of trying to fix them with band aids after the fact. You can aesthetically brute-force away the problems in the bass area by going single bass array with heavy absorption on the back wall, make separate bass towers for midbass or use large horns for that extreme visceral impact that virtually no off-the-shelf speaker can get you.
You can decide if you want wide, medium or narrow dispersion, if you want constant directivity or a gradually changing one - and you can take extreme liberties with weight and complexities that no manufacturer can do.

Limiting end-game to speakers instead of a whole system including room sounds counter-productive to me. Dream big.

 

[mcdn]

I think a copycat version of the March Audio Sointuva, which is a small sealed box made with off the shelf drivers, could be duplicated easily enough, as these things go, and would yield a two way passive box speaker that's about as good as the breed can be.

The Sointuva isn't sealed, it has a pair of passive radiators on the back. It's a really nice speaker (I've heard a pre-WG pair in my home, demoed by Alan himself), but it's also quite complex. Getting the details right so the PRs don't interfere with the woofer isn't easy, and that design effort is what you pay for in the commercial design and can't easily replicate in DIY.

Most people would be better off with the Directiva R1 for a DIY 2 way using a Purifi 6.5 woofer. The designs are open, performance is verified, the standard cabinet is easily available, and the outcome is as good as any. Multiple crossover and cabinet options are available right on this site for the more adventurous.

 

[Jukka]

It's not that hard, mass defines tuning frequency, you can simulated it in any simulator.

 

[voodooless]

A thread about endgame DIY speakers, and nobody mentioned a synergy horn yet? Something like Danley's Hyperion should definitely be considered. It however also illustrates how complex a speaker build can be. Not to mention the special equipment that would be needed to build something like that. Surely a 3D printer is a must.

 

[Naturlyd]

I really do think its possible to DIY a set of Endgame speakers.

The key I think is in what @Absolute stated: "no sense trying to DIY end-game speakers if you choose the same restraints a commercial manufacturer have to make". Ill try to be brief describing my own efforts and to point to the Norwegian DIY scene where there are many examples of enthusiasts having owned cost no object commercial offerings end up DIYing loudspeaker systems bettering what they had before.

Today we have tools available to simulate before we make costly mistakes. We can optimise using freely available tools (REMEBER TO DONATE!) REW for measuring, ATH4 for designing horns, Hornresp for simulating all kinds of bass loading, VituixCAD for simulating complete constructions, RePhase FIR filter tool and many more. If you enjoy learning new tools this is a fun part of the process. We also have a massive resource in all the great speaker designers posting on many of the online communities. Tom Danley has basically given away all the design secrets to his Unity/Synergy and Tapped horn constructions along with a lot of useful tips along the way. "Speaker Dave" of JBL, KEF, PSB and Snell fame is also a well of insight, the same is Joachim Gerhard and many more. Someone mentioned in an earlier post - as a DIY you dont have co workers warning you that this new idea of yours is allready tried out and not so brilliant as you think. Well, enter the age of the web and the beautiful gift of really succesful loudspeaker designers sharing knowlege. Of course you have to sift through many a self acclaimed expert but start with ignoring anyone talking about cables, cryo and acoustic remedies consisting of 1" of cotton then you will do just fine.

This is fun!

Even if you approach the task (hobby) of making an end game speaker scientifically you face the danger of overlooking artifacts and to choose the wrong compromises. Its really helpful to be a part of a community and to visit friends and have them over to listen to you choices. This may be a part of the success of so many projects in the Norwegian DIY community. Its also helpful to have brilliant loudspeakers at home. I bought a pair of JBL M2s and 708is just to keep myself straight when projecting my own co-entrant (Synergy style) horn this winter. Ill actually make two horns and shift the drivers back and forth. And here I can do what no commercial offering has done yet to my knowlege. Ill make a way bigger horn on my freestanding pair, bigger than Danleys new sivil offering. And ill design a pair that fits perfectly into the corners of my media room. Here the hornwalls may extend parallell with the walls and get hornloading down to Schrooder. Now we are talking solutions that give you as a DIYer the upper hand over some fancy showroom solution.

Earlier I have had fun with big JBL and Klipsch cinema speakers. The huge JBL 2360 and Klipsch 402 convinced me of the importance of directivity control as far down towards Schrooder as possible. Today you can buy a big horn and a fantastic 12-15" and get going for a reasonable sum. And the results will match lots of High End commercial offerings if you have the patience and the will to incrementally optimize your setup. BEWARE: of course there are setups like this out there that do not sound good at all and have given DIY a bad rep.

Am I allowed to link to other forums? To show some examples of fun and succesful DIY. There seem to be some confusion on the subject. Or maybe its only me not understanding the rules.

 

[fpitas]

One of my favorite quotes... and Acoustics is still relevant and an excellent source of information, though much of it requires math that is simply beyond me.

And ironically I'm more critical of my own DIY speaker efforts than say, my friend's DIY speakers. I guess it's the engineering mindset; it's never quite good enough, we always see the warts.

 

[benanders]

A loudspeaker is a collection of compromises. You need to set a target, a goal before you can start choosing components or designs.

I DIY to save money. With 5-6k and employing a pro carpenter you can create an end game set. But you need to define it first.

Bump.

I have a tendency to be super-overly-long-winded to a point of fault, so I really appreciate the accuracy and brevity of your comment, @Jukka .

Depending on what the user’s goals are, indeed it can be possible. IF the goals are within the limits of the user’s DIY resources.

In this case (see his $30k thread), I’m inclined to believe the goals are not within said limits, at least not comfortably. Hopefully, your points will be considered!

 

[Naturlyd]

Ill just post some pictures that may inspire. Some of these setups is a mix of commercial speakers and diy but most of whats shown is pure amateur DIY.

 

[Mr. Widget]

And ironically I'm more critical of my own DIY speaker efforts than say, my friend's DIY speakers. I guess it's the engineering mindset; it's never quite good enough, we always see the warts.

I understand completely. I have stopped beating myself up over it since a perfect speaker only exists on paper and we can never hope to get there... with care we can get pretty close, but never quite get there.

Lately I have stopped worrying about it and have focused more of my time enjoying the music.

 

[fpitas]

I understand completely. I have stopped beating myself up over it since a perfect speaker only exists on paper and we can never hope to get there... with care we can get pretty close, but never quite get there.

Lately I have stopped worrying about it and have focused more of my time enjoying the music.

The journey started as a means to teach myself speaker design. And I have become reasonably good.

 

[Mr. Widget]

The journey started as a means to teach myself speaker design. And I have become reasonably good.

My journey started as a 15 year old who couldn't afford any decent speakers. My earliest speakers were pretty awful by today's standards, but every project taught me something. Many hundreds of speakers and several decades later I have become pretty good at it too.

 

[Everett T]

I'd love to build a large fully active dual transmission line, something to handle the lowest octave on a pipe but I always come back to the same problem, the room to put it in.

 

[Vineeth Kumar V]

I wouldn't call my speakers endgame but I have been having a very satisfying experience with them so far.
1) 3-way fully active DSP crossover system configuration with the following drivers: Bass - 2 x Satori WO24P-8, mids - wavecor WF120BD03, highs - SB acoustics SB26CDC004 on augerpro's elliptical waveguide:

Spinorama data using polar measurements

Preference score

2) Two way system using the above Bass module but with a compression driver in ST260KVAR horn handling the frequecies above 1.2kHz.

Spinorama data using polar measurements

Preference score

 

[voodooless]

I wouldn't call my speakers endgame but I have been having a very satisfying experience with them so far.
1) 3-way fully active DSP crossover system configuration with the following drivers: a) Bass - 2 x Satori WO24P-8, mids - wavecor WF120BD03, highs - SB acoustics SB26CDC004 on augerpro's elliptical waveguide:
View attachment 254534

Spinorama data using polar measurements
View attachment 254535
Preference score
View attachment 254536

2) Two way system using the above Bass module but with a compression driver in ST260KVAR horn handling the frequecies above 1.2kHz.

Spinorama data using polar measurements
View attachment 254539
Preference score
View attachment 254541

Nice! How different do these two sound? Why is the directivity around 300 Hz so different? Is the 2-way top playing that low already?

 

[Vineeth Kumar V]

Nice! How different do these two sound? Why is the directivity around 300 Hz so different? Is the 2-way top playing that low already?

Thank you.
I find that both systems are nice in their own ways. But at the moment, I like the 3 way system more.
I find them much easier and more relaxing to listen to than the 2 way. However, so far I felt that the 2 ways image slighty better with a 45 degree ish toe in like that mentioned in Dr Earl Geddes's speaker placement article (very precise instrument placing in the soundstage but the 3ways are not much further away in this aspect either).

On the 2 way system, I use a Peerless DFM 2544R compression driver on the horn and the woofer configuration doesn't do much justice to the overall speaker. I should ideally get a 12-inch driver like the Faital pro 12PR320 or similar to pair with CD horn for a better directivity match. I am also changing the CD to BMS4550 which might probably be better for lower crossover frequencies.
At the moment, I am in the process of treating my room to some extent to see if that changes preferences again.
Here is the full VituixCAD six pack and crossover for the 2 way system. The higher directivity of the system I think comes from the 2 way with dual woofer configuration itself i think.

In the 3 way system, the two way top module is crossed over to the woofers at a relatively low crossover frequency. I haven't changed crossover to higher frequencies since I haven't found any audible issues so far. Here is the six pack for it.

Measured impulse and step responses

 

[Ra1zel]

Unless you have the same resources as Harman or another top flight speaker manufacturer and you have the same level of practical design experience as their best tenured loudspeaker designers

Or literally two measuring mics, speaker turntable, REW/Arta and VituixCAD + infinite knowledge of the internet

and at the high end, the designs are generally highly specialized and require resources beyond the realm of the DIYer.

No such thing. Best DIY efforts of today are ahead of best commercial efforts

 

[Rednaxela]

Best DIY efforts of today are ahead of best commercial efforts

Really?

 

[abdo123]

Really?

Not really. Genelec the ones are ahead of anything any other brand is doing and is certainly ahead of any DIY efforts.

KEF Blades are basically advanced allien civilization level of technology compared to what DIYers typically do.

Maybe the Revel Salon 2 are more realistic in terms of what a DIYer can do if cost is no objection. But that's already a 15 year old design.