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Elac Debut Reference DBR-62 Speaker Review

JSHamlet234

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Can we say that the speakers, just out of the box, need a little "break-in" to relax the membranes?

Fs of the drivers will definitely drop a smidge, and generally very quickly. This has been tested before. It should affect the bass extension in a very small, but positive way, especially since the manufacturer has undoubtedly factored it into the speaker's port tuning. I can't be certain if the effect on the tweeter would be detectable at all, nor can I say with any confidence that there would be a detectable change to the mid-range sensitivity of the woofer. New speakers do usually sound better to me after I've listened to them for awhile, but then again, so do new-to-me used speakers, so there may be some "brain EQ" involved with that.
 

Shazb0t

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In theory, maybe. But I have noticed a distinct sound difference in certain speakers when you feed them more power or hook them to an amp that just has more grunt. They sound "more alive" and dynamic than what they do with less WPC.

For example, the original Elac UNi-Fi's are still loud with lower power amps, but they just sound flat and dull. Give them more power with a good 4ohm amp and they completely transform. I'm sure there's a point where X watts will sound the same as X+n watts, but every speaker is going to differ in that and some may and will respond better to a higher power amp.

And given AJ's previous designs, his speakers typically like more power.
This is purely anecdotal and has no basis in the reality of how power amplifiers and loudspeakers actually work. The only things that matter are what level you want to listen at, what the peak power requirement for that level would be, and if that amplifier is capable of providing adequate power for the peaks so that it does not clip. If these criteria are met, and the amplifiers are both audibly transparent in distortion, frequency response, etc., then what you're suggesting is simply untrue. If you were to setup this test with your Uni-Fi's in a controlled listening experiment you would find yourself unable to hear this "complete transformation" and end up being unable to do better than random guessing when attempting to distinguish which amplifier is providing power. I know that it's a tough pill to swallow when you realize your biases are powerful enough to alter your perception of what's true, but they are.
 
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MrPeabody

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In theory, maybe. But I have noticed a distinct sound difference in certain speakers when you feed them more power or hook them to an amp that just has more grunt. They sound "more alive" and dynamic than what they do with less WPC.

For example, the original Elac UNi-Fi's are still loud with lower power amps, but they just sound flat and dull. Give them more power with a good 4ohm amp and they completely transform. I'm sure there's a point where X watts will sound the same as X+n watts, but every speaker is going to differ in that and some may and will respond better to a higher power amp.

And given AJ's previous designs, his speakers typically like more power.

Absolutely not. You cannot make a claim that is contrary to fundamental facts unless you at least provide a smidgen of evidence to back up what you are saying. There are basically two ways to do it. You can either show results from a properly executed double-blind test where it had been confirmed that at least one person was able to reliably tell the difference between the sound of the weaker amp vs. the stronger amp, when everything else was the same, when the volume level was low enough to insure that neither amp was clipping, where both amps are similar in terms of nominal distortion below the point of clipping, and where the volume levels are properly equalized. The other way is to use measurements to show that there should be an audible difference under those same conditions.

The language you used to make this silly claim is meaningless jabberwocky. "more grunt" means what exactly? "more alive" means what exactly? I understand the meaning of the word "dynamic" but the way you are using it is mysterious because it is not the least bit apparent what you mean. It is just a buzz word that you are using without any concern with whether your use of it has any palpable meaning. And that is annoying.

What you're saying just doesn't make sense, because it is incompatible with facts that are about as fundamental as facts can be. Given two amplifiers with similar levels of nominal distortion, and with both operating at a power level where neither is clipping, with the sound level equalized, they will not sound different unless one of them is distorting in some way that hasn't been identified. The ability of one of the two amps to supply more current than the speaker uses at the non-clipping signal level cannot possibly affect the sound. The idea that it would is preposterous, because it is entirely the same as claiming that even though the speaker uses the same amount of power with both amps, it uses more power with the more powerful amp than with the less powerful amp. Self-contradictory statements do not ever make sense, and even though you didn't say this in a clear manner, it is in fact what your claim amounts to.

The reason this bugs me is that it is one of the most common misunderstandings among common audiophiles, and it is contrary to fundamental facts and also contrary to common sense. A speaker uses only as much power as it uses, and the only way it is possible for the sound to improve if the speaker is connected to an amplifier that is capable of supplying more power than the speaker uses is if distortion is lower with the more powerful amplifier. It is possible that distortion will be lower with the more power amplifier, and it is possible that distortion will be lower with the less powerful amplifier. Obviously only one of these two possibilities is possible if the weaker amplifier is clipping, but if the weaker amplifier is clipping, this is a different matter altogether, unless you happen to believe that all amplifiers are clipping to some extent all the time. If we're talking about the weaker amplifier clipping, we don't use words and phrases like, "more grunt", "more alive", and "dynamic". Rather, we say that if the weaker amplifier is clipping, a more powerful amplifier will sound better.

I'm sorry, but when someone says something that is just plainly wrong, it does not help for them to try and rationalize the idea with anecdotal non-information. The notion is wrong. Speakers do not use more power than they use. You can bend it, twist it, swallow it and fart it out until hell freezes over, and the fact will remain that speakers do not use more power than they use.
 

richard12511

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Your telling me a 100w peak power amplifier will sound the same as a 200w rms amplifier on the same speakers at the same volume ?

Assuming both amps are of decent quality, yes. I don't know the amps you're comparing, but if you're hearing significant differences, those are likely due to placebo. An amp should be audibly transparent if it's well made(ie you can't hear it).
 

Benedium

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Maybe if the wattage were the only variable?
Pretty sure the audio science professionals and fans have already studied and covered all grounds in the possible areas. I imagine this is the reason why audioscience guys get so annoyed with us laypersons sometimes. That somehow the non specialist doesn't see anything wrong with questioning the intelligence of the specialist.
 

Coke101

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Sorry to elaborate on my comment,
the difference in sound would be due the amplifiers clipping not due to the sound difference in wattage. The smaller amplifier would clip way sooner on a dynamic track than a higher power amplifier therefore effecting the sound
providing we’re using a volume level that will drive the smaller amplifier into clipping
Didn’t mean to rattle some feathers
 

weasels

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Sorry to elaborate on my comment,
the difference in sound would be due the amplifiers clipping not due to the sound difference in wattage. The smaller amplifier would clip way sooner on a dynamic track than a higher power amplifier therefore effecting the sound
providing we’re using a volume level that will drive the smaller amplifier into clipping
Didn’t mean to rattle some feathers

Only if the volume is high enough to drive the smaller amplifier into clipping.
 

MrPeabody

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Sorry to elaborate on my comment,
the difference in sound would be due the amplifiers clipping not due to the sound difference in wattage. The smaller amplifier would clip way sooner on a dynamic track than a higher power amplifier therefore effecting the sound
providing we’re using a volume level that will drive the smaller amplifier into clipping
Didn’t mean to rattle some feathers

Yes, if the weaker amplifier is driven to clipping and the other isn't, they will sound different. And if this is what you actually meant, fine. But previously you made no mention of clipping, and the important point, regardless of what you did or did not originally mean to say, is that a more powerful amplifier doesn't routinely, generally sound better. It does so only in particular circumstances, where the weaker amplifier isn't able to supply the power the speaker requires at the given volume level.
 

MrPeabody

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Pretty sure the audio science professionals and fans have already studied and covered all grounds in the possible areas. I imagine this is the reason why audioscience guys get so annoyed with us laypersons sometimes. That somehow the non specialist doesn't see anything wrong with questioning the intelligence of the specialist.

There isn't anything wrong with anyone questioning anything, so long as questions are asked in good faith. I get annoyed when there is a point that has been thoroughly explained and people argue to the contrary anyway. I also get annoyed over the fact that so many people who are into audio have virtually no technical understanding of anything. I would wager that more the half the people who present themselves as audio experts on some forums (not this one) have never studied electricity or physics, at all, at any level. If they attended college and took the general science class they were required to take (if they were even required to take a general science class), they were satisfied with a passing grade on the test on electricity, and gave no further thought to the subject once it was behind them.

Only recently was I awakened to the fact that there are lots of audiophiles whose technical knowledge is so poor that they have no reason to be dubious of the suggestion that a more powerful amplifier will make a speaker sound better even when the less powerful amplifier is able to supply the voltage and current the speaker requires at the applicable volume level (without clipping). The notion that an amplifier with more "grunt" will allow the speaker to "open up" is annoying to me because it is meaningless drivel. It becomes even worse when it is presented in the context of some particular speaker, implying that this one speaker has some special need by which it will benefit more strongly from this nebulous effect, vs. other speakers that are similar in efficiency and sensitivity.
 

maniolo

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I agree it has to be the placement/room. I have never seen a review say they sound garish or bright. If anything they may be boring to some (my use of Dynamic EQ fixes that for all speakers when listening at lower levels).

Indeed, the Elac had to be misplaced because once I put them in the place of the Planet, I no longer had this "stiffness" in the treble. This could be due to the bay window not far away, finally an enclosure was found almost in front of the glass surface.
My amp seems powerful enough, the bass is very deep, it is even stunning at this price. In short, I am very happy with this purchase :)
 

JSHamlet234

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There isn't anything wrong with anyone questioning anything, so long as questions are asked in good faith. I get annoyed when there is a point that has been thoroughly explained and people argue to the contrary anyway. I also get annoyed over the fact that so many people who are into audio have virtually no technical understanding of anything. I would wager that more the half the people who present themselves as audio experts on some forums (not this one) have never studied electricity or physics, at all, at any level. If they attended college and took the general science class they were required to take (if they were even required to take a general science class), they were satisfied with a passing grade on the test on electricity, and gave no further thought to the subject once it was behind them.

Only recently was I awakened to the fact that there are lots of audiophiles whose technical knowledge is so poor that they have no reason to be dubious of the suggestion that a more powerful amplifier will make a speaker sound better even when the less powerful amplifier is able to supply the voltage and current the speaker requires at the applicable volume level (without clipping). The notion that an amplifier with more "grunt" will allow the speaker to "open up" is annoying to me because it is meaningless drivel. It becomes even worse when it is presented in the context of some particular speaker, implying that this one speaker has some special need by which it will benefit more strongly from this nebulous effect, vs. other speakers that are similar in efficiency and sensitivity.

What if someone were to switch out the cables with ones that have a warmer signature? o_O
 

Beershaun

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holbob

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That’s a nice rack.

41B16pWX5uL._AC_.jpg
 
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