Dutch&Dutch add ‘uBacch’ to their 8C active loudspeaker

[GDK]

I had a relatively brief session using the BAACH plug-in as part of the trial. In my very small listening room I noticed a very slight improvement in the sound. I recruited my young son in and he alsohad a slight preference for when BAACH was activated, but they weren’t particularly different, unfortunately.

 

[Se7enAtx]

I had a relatively brief session using the BAACH plug-in as part of the trial. In my very small listening room I noticed a very slight improvement in the sound. I recruited my young son in and he alsohad a slight preference for when BAACH was activated, but they weren’t particularly different, unfortunately.

The trick really comes down to how your listening space is setup. I've run Bacch in three different listening rooms over the past few years, and what has worked with all 3 of them isn't that they were anechoic or heavily treated, but more critically, that I was sitting in the acoustic nearfield.

That's not to say that I was sitting physically close to the speakers, but it does mean that there was stronger ratio of direct sound coming from the speakers than reflected sound from the room.

In my first setup, that meant the system was setup along the long wall of the room, in my current setup, I'm setup into the corner of the room.

Bacch's job is to stop left channel information from reaching the right ear, vice versa. It can't effectively do that if left channel information is reflecting off of your right wall then reaching your right ear.

Using the above example, the more of a delay in that left channel information reaching the right ear, the more effective or convincing bacch will be.

 

[GDK]

The trick really comes down to how your listening space is setup. I've run Bacch in three different listening rooms over the past few years, and what has worked with all 3 of them isn't that they were anechoic or heavily treated, but more critically, that I was sitting in the acoustic nearfield.

That's not to say that I was sitting physically close to the speakers, but it does mean that there was stronger ratio of direct sound coming from the speakers than reflected sound from the room.

In my first setup, that meant the system was setup along the long wall of the room, in my current setup, I'm setup into the corner of the room.

Bacch's job is to stop left channel information from reaching the right ear, vice versa. It can't effectively do that if left channel information is reflecting off of your right wall then reaching your right ear.

Using the above example, the more of a delay in that left channel information reaching the right ear, the more effective or convincing bacch will be.

Yes, I expect that my room is too small and therefore the reflections are too abundant for it to work. Unfortunately, I don’t have any alternatives to change the layout. Anyway, not a problem. Clearly, it makes a big difference for some people, which is great.

 

[Se7enAtx]

Yes, I expect that my room is too small and therefore the reflections are too abundant for it to work. Unfortunately, I don’t have any alternatives to change the layout. Anyway, not a problem. Clearly, it makes a big difference for some people, which is great.

Fair enough.. The cheap experiment is always to pull a chair up and listen near-field, at least to get a sense of what the technology is doing.

 

[phoenixdogfan]

Fair enough.. The cheap experiment is always to pull a chair up and listen near-field, at least to get a sense of what the technology is doing.

So we're saying it will work far better if you have a near field (3-5 ft) listening position particularly in a smaller listening space?

 

[Emlin]

So we're saying it will work far better if you have a near field (3-5 ft) listening position particularly in a smaller listening space?

I think what's being said is that the higher the ratio of direct sound to reflections the better.

 

[Se7enAtx]

So we're saying it will work far better if you have a near field (3-5 ft) listening position particularly in a smaller listening space?

I use the term "near-field" in the acoustic sense. Nearfield is when there is more direct sound coming from the speakers than the room. Far-field is when there is more reflected sound than direct. That's the acoustic definition. Technically there is no mid-field, although some companies may market their products as such.

The actual distance to the listening position is relative only to that. In my current corner setup, I could be in a 9' or even 10' triangle and still be in the acoustic nearfield.

If the physical dimensions of your listening space won't allow for nearfield, then acoustic treatment is the other option. Again, the goal is to deal with the ratio of reflected vs direct sound, not necessarily frequency response.

 

[Purité Audio]

There is a trial available,
Matthijs from D&D,
‘ There is! If you go to the BACCH plugin in the app it should give the option to request a trial.

(But note that the BACCH plugin is unavailable on 8c-studio speakers since the it currently only works for streaming input modes.)‘

Keith

 

[Bortman]

Follow this link.

If you scroll down, you'll see the direct links to the appropriate Ascend version.

Firmware Version 2.4

Firmware Version 2.4 This document describes the contents and new features of firmware release 2.4 for the Dutch & Dutch 8-series products. Overview Firmware version 2.4 was officially released on Oct 18th 2023. This version makes the 8c the first ever loudspeakers capable of running commercial...

dutchdutch.com

Thank you. It seems for me at least that the firmware updated automatically, but the App required a manual update via the webstore. Both are synchronized and additional features are now visible.

 

[bananasareyellow]

I've just requested a trial of the BACCH plug-in. Does anyone happen to know how long the trial period is?

Is this worth the hefty price tag?

My speakers are on the long wall, on either side of a large fireplace, so not near the side walls. From what @Se7enAtx posted, I conclude this might be a good thing.

Will I need to move the speakers closer together for the best effect? This would be a pain for comparison testing.

Will the benefit only be experienced when sitting dead centre? If so, will it make things worse for other listening positions?

I guess I will soon find out once I get my trial approved, but I'm wondering what other people think so far.

 

[Se7enAtx]

I've just requested a trial of the BACCH plug-in. Does anyone happen to know how long the trial period is?

Is this worth the hefty price tag?

My speakers are on the long wall, on either side of a large fireplace, so not near the side walls. From what @Se7enAtx posted, I conclude this might be a good thing.

Will I need to move the speakers closer together for the best effect? This would be a pain for comparison testing.

Will the benefit only be experienced when sitting dead centre? If so, will it make things worse for other listening positions?

I guess I will soon find out once I get my trial approved, but I'm wondering what other people think so far.

It sounds like your room setup my play very well to the Bacch's strengths. I believe that the trial is 14 days.

You shouldn't need to pull the speakers closer together.

Whether or not it's worth it comes down to if it works in your room, you enjoy the sound and whether or not your musical tastes leverage what Bacch does (no, I don't mean binaural recordings). On this last point, I find that the traditional "audiophile" recordings tend to be so constrained in their mastering, that they don't have much to offer in terms of additional recorded information. Aka, if you only listen to Nora Jones and Rebecca Pigeon, you probably won't find Bacch very interesting.

I also think that the cost is relative. Given that a Bacch4mac rig costs around 5K++ and the SP ADIO starts at 20k and easily jumps into the 30s, I think that 1k for u-bacch is a steal. In my room, 8c ubacch is delivering easily 70-75% of the performance of my SP ADIO, and I never want to listen with Bacch off, it's a no brainer.

One last thought around the cost itself. People tend to balk when software isn't free, or costs more than $9.99. It's too easy to forget that this stuff doesn't make itself. This is a multi-year effort to bring Bacch to the 8c, and it's also a licensing agreement with royalties that go back to Theoretica, Princeton, Bacch Labs, etc. I think that it's safe to say that no one is getting rich off of this.

I do hope that you do the trial. I'm also more than happy to jump on a call sometime to discuss setup and optimization, etc.

 

[Purité Audio]

I've just requested a trial of the BACCH plug-in. Does anyone happen to know how long the trial period is?

Is this worth the hefty price tag?

My speakers are on the long wall, on either side of a large fireplace, so not near the side walls. From what @Se7enAtx posted, I conclude this might be a good thing.

Will I need to move the speakers closer together for the best effect? This would be a pain for comparison testing.

Will the benefit only be experienced when sitting dead centre? If so, will it make things worse for other listening positions?

I guess I will soon find out once I get my trial approved, but I'm wondering what other people think so far.

It definitely does something, tell us what you think when you have had a chance to listen.
Theoretica’s sales model almost rivals Geithain.
Keith

 

[bananasareyellow]

It definitely does something, tell us what you think when you have had a chance to listen.
Theoretica’s sales model almost rivals Geithain.
Keith

I requested a trial on Sunday. It's now Wednesday. Not heard anything back and Ascend is still offering to buy the plug-in or request a trial. Perhaps there is a queue?

 

[GDK]

I requested a trial on Sunday. It's now Wednesday. Not heard anything back and Ascend is still offering to buy the plug-in or request a trial. Perhaps there is a queue?

Try and see if you can set it up anyway. I didn’t hear anything back from them until a week after the trial had started.

 

[bananasareyellow]

@Martijn Mensink sent me a direct message and set up the trial for me - thanks Martijn.

I have a demo playlist in Roon, so I went through these tracks and played snippets to see what difference the BACCH plug-in makes. First I got a tape measure and checked my listening triangle. Although it's only mid-afternoon here in the UK, I closed the curtains to minimise reflections. Here are my initial impressions after about 45 minutes of listening.

The effect is rather like wide-stereo mode in that the sound stage is expanded.

In some cases, especially off-centre, I found instruments were slightly harder to pinpoint, although they sounded more spatial.

Some of the time I found it a little uncomfortable, like when you go into a shop that's playing music and they have wired their speakers in anti-phase so it feels like your ears are being sucked in. I felt that same feeling slightly and this made me want to turn it off.

On some tracks, it seems to make no difference at all. On most tracks, it has a small effect and I'm not sure whether it's better or worse, just different. But it works really well with classical music. I listened to a couple of violin concertos and the sound stage was more life-like and definitely better.

These are just my initial impressions. Of course, switching it on and off every 20 seconds or so is not the best way to evaluate it, so I need to leave the switch alone and listen for longer periods.

 

[Martijn Mensink]

That's great, bananasareyellow!

I recognize what you're saying, also about the kind of phasey sound with some recordings. I have to say though, that as I've listened to BACCH more, that feeling went away mostely, except for some recordings with hard-panned left and right content. Switching back and forth a lot probably doesn't help with the sense of suckyness.

Please let us know what you think after listening to it for a few days.

 

[phoenixdogfan]

I just outright bought it on the last day it was available for $399, and I like it. I notice a widening of the soundstage by a considerable amount. I played the original Yes Album today and I noticed on "All Good People" there was material which played directly to the right and left of me simultaneously. It also created some real ambiance on the better recorded things I listen to. For example the sound track for Oppenheimer sounds like I'm immersed in a real concert hall.

I admit I've been extremely skeptical thinking that it's just a sound effect. Now I don't necessarily think so. Or, if it is, it's one I seem to prefer using. I don't think there's any reason to turn it off. But, for some reason, I can't get it to play pink noise, anyone else having this issue with the app?

 

[Se7enAtx]

I just outright bought it on the last day it was available for $399, and I like it. I notice a widening of the soundstage by a considerable amount. I played the original Yes Album today and I noticed on "All Good People" there was material which played directly to the right and left of me simultaneously. It also created some real ambiance on the better recorded things I listen to. For example the sound track for Oppenheimer sounds like I'm immersed in a real concert hall.

I admit I've been extremely skeptical thinking that it's just a sound effect. Now I don't necessarily think so. Or, if it is, it's one I seem to prefer using. I don't think there's any reason to turn it off. But, for some reason, I can't get it to play pink noise, anyone else having this issue with the app?

The issue with Pink noise is likely that it's a mono source. Mono technically works in opposition of Crosstalk Cancelation, as an identical signal is playing through both channels.

 

[napfkuchen]

This year I would like to acoustically upgrade my living room setup and replace the front speakers with the 8c and BAACH plugin. However, it's not entirely clear to me if this makes sense in my space...

1. My TV is a 65" model and will perhaps be replaced by an 85" at some point (as soon as there are OLED TVs in this size and you don't have to sell your soul for it). This means that the minimum distance between the speakers is just over 2m (6.6 ft). Does BAACH then even make sense? BAACH Labs' placement graphic suggests that the speakers should be placed closer together:

current setup:

The living room is open to the right and about 7m long; the hallway and kitchen (without doors) are adjacent. So acoustic symmetry won't be achieved.

2. In addition to direct streaming, I would also like to use the speakers as part of the surround setup via Denon 3800X's RCA pre-outs. This should be possible without any problems, or are there any pitfalls?

 

[Purité Audio]

Will the 8Cs be placed in the positions underneath the current wall mounted speakers?
Keith