Dutch & Dutch 8Cs

[Purité Audio]

Svart accuses me of lying around 122, I hope you are going to apologise by the way Svart!
Please glance at the post from Christoph Anat of Genelec posted on the Genelec forum.
I am sorry to hear about the damage O , we have had relatively more courier damage with the 8Cs purely I suspect because they are heavy and large.
Keith

 

[oivavoi]

I am sorry to hear about the damage O , I think D&D may have to look again at the speakers packaging, we have had relatively more courier damage with the 8Cs purely I suspect because they are heavy and large.
Keith

Just to make it clear, there is no visible "damage" on my pair. It's only that the back plate is not completely flush with the cabinet on one of the sides. Probably doesn't affect functionality or performance. It sounds extremely good to my fallible ears. But my dealer is a perfectionist who wants to ensure 100 percent customer satisfaction, and therefore wanted to be absolutely sure that I receive a pair which has been assembled with the utmost precision. I would never have noticed it if my dealer hadn't made me aware of it.

 

[Wombat]

Svart accuses me of lying around 122, I hope you are going to apologise by the way Svart!
Please glance at the post from Christoph Anat of Genelec posted on the Genelec forum.
I am sorry to hear about the damage O , I think D&D may have to look again at the speakers packaging, we have had relatively more courier damage with the 8Cs purely I suspect because they are heavy and large.
Keith

And not adequately packaged? Amazing, if so.

 

[Jakob1863]

Svart accuses me of lying around 122, I hope you are going to apologise by the way Svart!
Please glance at the post from Christoph Anat of Genelec posted on the Genelec forum.
<snip>
Keith

If you reread your comments on the driver issue in this thread and compare it to your post over at gearslutz you will notice that there is an important difference.
In this thread you described being told by a Tymphany guy that his company makes driver for Genelec.
In your post at Gearslutz you transformed that into "Tymphany make _all_ of Genelecs’ drivers" .

I hope we can agree that there is a difference between "make drivers for " and "make all drivers for" and that this difference in the assertion is a crucial one.

 

[Wombat]

How many 'boutique' loudspeaker brands actually have their own driver manufacturing facilities? Much ado over little.
There seems to be some emotional attachment to stuff going on.

Too much Genelec and too much D+D. IMNSHO.

 

[Thomas savage]

Just to make it clear, there is no visible "damage" on my pair. It's only that the back plate is not completely flush with the cabinet on one of the sides. Probably doesn't affect functionality or performance. It sounds extremely good to my fallible ears. But my dealer is a perfectionist who wants to ensure 100 percent customer satisfaction, and therefore wanted to be absolutely sure that I receive a pair which has been assembled with the utmost precision. I would never have noticed it if my dealer hadn't made me aware of it.

QC should pick that up at the factory, there’s bound to be one off issues but we are 2 for 2 here lol

There’s designing speakers then there’s making them and shipping them all around the world in significant numbers.

 

[Thomas savage]

Boutique speaker manufacturers making their own drivers is not nearly as good a idea as it seems lol

I’d rather a specialist company who have been mass producing drivers for years and years make the drivers personally.

Manufacturing is a science in of itself, requiring a skill and knowledge set of its own. The forces drivers are subjected too does not mix well with amateur manufacturers.

 

[svart-hvitt]

Svart accuses me of lying around 122, I hope you are going to apologise by the way Svart!
Please glance at the post from Christoph Anat of Genelec posted on the Genelec forum.
I am sorry to hear about the damage O , I think D&D may have to look again at the speakers packaging, we have had relatively more courier damage with the 8Cs purely I suspect because they are heavy and large.
Keith

Should I apologise for pointing out that you misrepresent information on Genelec repeatedly? To sum up:

1) You claim 8260 roll off at 40-45 Hz. The official specs show response below 30 Hz. I guess they go much deeper than that in-room based on my experience with 8351. You claim that 8260 need subs, as compared to DD8. 8260 is a significantly bigger speaker than DD8, which is reflected in the two speakers’ official low-frequency specs.

2) You insinuate that Genelec didn’t develop its DSP software, which can be understood in two ways: a) that Genelec didn’t R&D its own DSP software or b) that they haven’t developed their DSP software in years. Both insinuations are wrong. The relevant information is easily available on Genelec’s web page.

3) On Gearslutz a representative of Genelec told you to stop misrepresenting the company in a discussion about «The Ones», i.e. its newer range of coaxial three-way speakers (Genelec make the world’s smallest three-way in the world, the 8331). Ilkka of Genelec wrote the following: «Keith,

Your agenda here is clear, but would you still stop spreading false information about Genelec, please? If you would have any actual knowledge, you would know that for example all drivers in The Ones series are designed and manufactured in-house, at the Genelec factory in Iisalmi, Finland, where I work».

4) NEW!!! As pointed out just above, Genelec make the smallest three-way speaker in the world, the 8331a. Any designer knows it’s easier to design and build when space is no constraint. It takes competency to build for the book of records, i.e. a three-way of only 6.7 kg, in a cabinet of 12 litres. Then you go on in a more recent comment with the following statement: «If Genelec made a ground breaking loudspeaker I would stock it.
Keith». Your agenda on Genelec is obvious and I may only speculate why.

In academia, «misrepresenting» is the politically correct word for lying, cfr. professor Flyvbjergs good articles (see previous comment of mine) on the subject of misrepresenting in academia. So I believe the choice of word depends on ASR members view on being politically correct or calling a spade a spade.

I will not apologise for pointing out points 1, 2, 3 and 4.

 

[Purité Audio]

And not adequately packaged? Amazing, if so.

By any standards the speakers are properly protected but if you have any experience with couriers you will be only too aware of the damage they can contrive to inflict, one box arrived here recently pierced through all three outer boxes, it looked like a fork lift ‘prong’ had been driven through the box!
UPS so far have been pretty reliable.
Keith

 

[Thomas savage]

We need to stick to Dutch and Dutch here and the subjects that lead from but are related too that discussion.

 

[oivavoi]

Too much Genelec and too much D+D. IMNSHO.

To be clear, I don't have any emotional attachment to D&D. As far as I'm concerned, they have a simple job to do, and that is to reproduce sound. I'm not married to them. To the degree that there is fuss about them, I would think that it's due to the speaker design, which is quite innovative (I'm not aware of any other speakers which embody insights derived from dr. @Floyd Toole 's research about speaker design and acoustics to the same degree as these). But as @Thomas savage points out, designing speakers requires a different set of skills than manufacturing them in large numbers. I think the current predicament of Tesla also attests to the fact that manufacturing pedigree matters, it's not only about having the best ideas.

 

[Purité Audio]

Should I apologise for pointing out that you misrepresent information on Genelec repeatedly? To sum up:

1) You claim 8260 roll off at 40-45 Hz. The official specs show response below 30 Hz. I guess they go much deeper than that in-room based on my experience with 8351. You claim that 8260 need subs, as compared to DD8. 8260 is a significantly bigger speaker than DD8, which is reflected in the two speakers’ official low-frequency specs.

2) You insinuate that Genelec didn’t develop its DSP software, which can be understood in two ways: a) that Genelec didn’t R&D its own DSP software or b) that they haven’t developed their DSP software in years. Both insinuations are wrong. The relevant information is easily available on Genelec’s web page.

3) On Gearslutz a representative of Genelec told you to stop misrepresenting the company in a discussion about «The Ones», i.e. its newer range of coaxial three-way speakers (Genelec make the world’s smallest three-way in the world, the 8331). Ilkka of Genelec wrote the following: «Keith,

Your agenda here is clear, but would you still stop spreading false information about Genelec, please? If you would have any actual knowledge, you would know that for example all drivers in The Ones series are designed and manufactured in-house, at the Genelec factory in Iisalmi, Finland, where I work».

4) NEW!!! As pointed out just above, Genelec make the smallest three-way speaker in the world, the 8331a. Any designer knows it’s easier to design and build when space is no constraint. It takes competency to build for the book of records, i.e. a three-way of only 6.7 kg, in a cabinet of 12 litres. Then you go on in a more recent comment with the following statement: «If Genelec made a ground breaking loudspeaker I would stock it.
Keith». Your agenda on Genelec is obvious and I may only speculate why.

In academia, «misrepresenting» is the politically correct word for lying, cfr. professor Flyvbjergs good articles (see previous comment of mine) on the subject of misrepresenting in academia. So I believe the choice of word depends on ASR members view on being politically correct or calling a spade a spade.

I will not apologise for pointing out points 1, 2, 3 and 4.

A real man would have just apologised Svart, you accused me of lying about Genelec’s Driver manufacturer, and when I provide proof from Genelec themselves you still can’t admit you are wrong, poor show .
Keith

 

[Cosmik]

As pointed out just above, Genelec make the smallest three-way speaker in the world, the 8331a. Any designer knows it’s easier to design and build when space is no constraint. It takes competency to build for the book of records, i.e. a three-way of only 6.7 kg, in a cabinet of 12 litres.

I'll bet I could make a smaller, lighter one perhaps four or five or twenty seven-way... but I don't see why it's noteworthy or difficult..?

Get some drivers; make a box with holes and compartments in it; screw in the drivers and wire them up to appropriate crossover filters; play music. It may, or may not, sound any good...

 

[oivavoi]

Should I apologise for pointing out that you misrepresent information on Genelec repeatedly? To sum up:

1) You claim 8260 roll off at 40-45 Hz. The official specs show response below 30 Hz. I guess they go much deeper than that in-room based on my experience with 8351. You claim that 8260 need subs, as compared to DD8. 8260 is a significantly bigger speaker than DD8, which is reflected in the two speakers’ official low-frequency specs.

2) You insinuate that Genelec didn’t develop its DSP software, which can be understood in two ways: a) that Genelec didn’t R&D its own DSP software or b) that they haven’t developed their DSP software in years. Both insinuations are wrong. The relevant information is easily available on Genelec’s web page.

3) On Gearslutz a representative of Genelec told you to stop misrepresenting the company in a discussion about «The Ones», i.e. its newer range of coaxial three-way speakers (Genelec make the world’s smallest three-way in the world, the 8331). Ilkka of Genelec wrote the following: «Keith,

Your agenda here is clear, but would you still stop spreading false information about Genelec, please? If you would have any actual knowledge, you would know that for example all drivers in The Ones series are designed and manufactured in-house, at the Genelec factory in Iisalmi, Finland, where I work».

4) NEW!!! As pointed out just above, Genelec make the smallest three-way speaker in the world, the 8331a. Any designer knows it’s easier to design and build when space is no constraint. It takes competency to build for the book of records, i.e. a three-way of only 6.7 kg, in a cabinet of 12 litres. Then you go on in a more recent comment with the following statement: «If Genelec made a ground breaking loudspeaker I would stock it.
Keith». Your agenda on Genelec is obvious and I may only speculate why.

In academia, «misrepresenting» is the politically correct word for lying, cfr. professor Flyvbjergs good articles (see previous comment of mine) on the subject of misrepresenting in academia. So I believe the choice of word depends on ASR members view on being politically correct or calling a spade a spade.

I will not apologise for pointing out points 1, 2, 3 and 4.

I suggest that these posts - including this - get moved to a separate thread.

Just shortly: I agree that @Purité Audio has misrepresented things about Genelec a number of times. But what I think is not warranted in your posts, is the assumption about conscious motives on his behalf. My clear sense is that Keith says what he thinks, whatever that may be. This is also borne out by quite a lot of research: Deliberate lying is much less common than people think. Jon Elster has written very insightful things about this: https://www.cambridge.org/core/jour...presentation/C65959EF124CC879A543F06ABAF94DF8

What usually happens, is that our cognitive beliefs affects how we perceive reality. On such an account, Keith's conviction that Genelec is not SOTA or cutting-edge when it comes to speaker design, actually makes him believe that they don't make the drivers themselves, or don't develop their software etc. On a similar note, I am very convinced that Tony Blair himself actually believed that there were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. For example.

So while it is surely warranted to point out the inaccuracies in Keith's representation of Genelec, I don't think the inferral of conscious underlying motives is warranted.
Sorry for venturing even further OT.

 

[Sal1950]

QC should pick that up at the factory, there’s bound to be one off issues but we are 2 for 2 here lol

There’s designing speakers then there’s making them and shipping them all around the world in significant numbers.

Yep, we've been down this road before. Too many very expensive boutique products don't have the QC from the factory or long term reliability they should. What I've heard in this thread would not inspire me to purchase a pair of these $12,000 speakers.

 

[Dialectic]

Yep, we've been down this road before. Too many very expensive boutique products don't have the QC from the factory or long term reliability they should. What I've heard in this thread would not inspire me to purchase a pair of these $12,000 speakers.

The problems have been serious, but D&D is not a fly-by-night operation and has taken action to correct the problems. I've dealt with various high-end manufacturers following QC issues, and D&D has been by far the easiest to deal with, and the most courteous, of any of them.

Some credit should go to @Purité Audio, which arranged for the replacement.

I had hoped that D&D would switch away from oak cabinetry and offer to have my pair rebuilt in a new material, but that wasn't to be. Perhaps they'll switch to HDF or aluminum in the future.

 

[Purité Audio]

Your particular cabinet issue has in my experience been unique, we have suffered a small number of instances of damage at the hands of couriers however.
Again ime the heavier the item the more likely damage occurring.
Keith

 

[fredoamigo]

Yep, we've been down this road before. Too many very expensive boutique products don't have the QC from the factory or long term reliability they should. What I've heard in this thread would not inspire me to purchase a pair of these $12,000 speakers.

I salute here the honesty of oivavoi and soundargument to talk about the small problem of the design or transport of the 8Cs because we do not yet know what it is exactly ..
in most cases, buyers would not have said anything. that's why you have to be understanding and patient for the rest and especially not draw too hasty conclusions... personally I listened to these hp and subjectively I find them excellent... I wait for the rest before making a decision...

 

[oivavoi]

I salute here the honesty of oivavoi and soundargument to talk about the small problem of the design or transport of the 8Cs because we do not yet know what it is exactly ..
in most cases, buyers would not have said anything. that's why you have to be understanding and patient for the rest and especially not draw too hasty conclusions... personally I listened to these hp and subjectively I find them excellent... I wait for the rest before making a decision...

In the spirit of ASR, where objectivity and truth are sought after, I think it would be bad form to not mention those kind of things! But it should be mentioned that D&D have been extremely approachable and forthcoming, and seem very committed to solving any issues that arise. So for me, these issues haven't detracted from my enthusiasm.

Just a comment on what Keith wrote on the cabinet issue @soundArgument has experienced: Per my Norwegian dealer, there has occurred at least one more such case. Apparently it was one specific production batch of the cabinets, where they tried out a different production technique, which led to this issue. So it shouldn't be a problem with those that are produced now. If there are more such issues I'm sure we will hear about them. But my overall impression is that they are very committed to the highest quality in production, design and customer support.

 

[Jakob1863]

Yep, we've been down this road before. Too many very expensive boutique products don't have the QC from the factory or long term reliability they should. What I've heard in this thread would not inspire me to purchase a pair of these $12,000 speakers.

Of course, you could argue that i am a bit biased wrt socalled "boutique products" , but if you consider the news about severe quality problems in products done by multinational giants in nearly every imaginable field - than there seems to be only (if ever) loose correlation between company size and quality.