I’m in whole-hearted agreement. An - albeit second best - option that allows one to leverage the inbuilt rear-firing subs and DSP to get good bass without too many additional subs / boxes is compelling for those of with shared rooms. It’s just, for me, a matter of how to achieve the best outcome with this constraint and it sounds like the source-sink model might be worth trying although I struggle to see how this will work well given that the source (8c) and sink (sub) aren’t identical.
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Dutch & Dutch 8Cs
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the debate on the subwoofer seems inevitable to me and it is interesting, since the 8Cs have suboutputs, it asks me questions about the "why and how" of integrating two additional subwoofer? the "why" is definitely to fight or clean up against modal room . Okay? but how? how are the two new faces positioned compared to those already integrated by the fronts? how will the dsp integrate? for example,... the genelec 8260A provides a microphone with large 24-page manual https://www.genelec.com/sites/default/files/media/Studio monitors/SAM Studio Monitors/8260A/genelec_8240_8250_8351_8260_opman.pdf with lots of general details but also on subwoofer integration, and also another appendix for beginners that talks about positioning and acoustics and many other things ! .... the dutch&dutch him, does not provide much detail as if everything would be obvious, but that is not enough for me .
I listened to the 8Cs on Monday for most of the day, they might interest me but for the price I want a product that will last in time, to know how the dsp will evolve.
sorry, but if I put 10k in a pair of speakers I want to know where I'm going, I want to know if it really holds up? if the company closes one day...who will take care of the dsp updates? who will repair it if the electronics (with proprietary circuitry) fails?
I don't think I'm the only one asking myself those questions??
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Yeah, you are right that I was referring to the "theoretical model" of Welti. The point is that any real rooms will behave differently from his model - both for Welti and for the rest of us. What achieves the best result in his practical room investigations might be different in rooms which look different (btw, the page number given was for the specific presentation I linked). As for the height thing being bad for subwoofer placement, I've heard it claimed, and there might be something to it. But I'm not completely convinced. What seems logical to me in a multi-sub config is to vary the height of sources, as this creates even more "distribution" of the bass waves which enter the room. This was the conclusion of Juha Bakcman at least, who followed up on Welti's investigations. So if doing a Geddes/Welti/Backman-style setup with the D&Ds, one could for example add one sub at floor height, and one smallish sub placed even higher up in a bookshelf? In order to do it in an optimal way.
On the vibration thing, as already stated, we are in complete agreement.
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I was thinking about this too. With the source sink model, one doesn't hear the sink at all, so I don't think it's critical that they "sound" the same (to the degree that deep bass has any particular sound to it). The only thing which may mess things up, to my mind, is if the frequency response of the sub and the two 8Cs is different. Example: If the D&Ds go down to 20 hz with boundary reinforcement in a certain room, and the sink sub only goes down to 35 hz... it means that there will be no sink for the frequencies between 20 and 30 hz. OR if the D&Ds only goes down to 30 hz in a given room, but the sub goes down flat to 18 hz, one will then start hearing the sink-sub from 30 hz and down, without any mode cancellation in those frequencies.
These might not be problems in real life at all. With music, there is not much going on below 30 hz anyway. But the main consideration for me when I choose a sub for such a setup when they implement it in the DSP, will be a sub that is as close as possible to the 8Cs in frequency response and output (probably a single largish sealed sub).
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You have my sympathy! As for my own D&D listening, I will report further impressions tomorrow evening probably... After my initial setup, I decided I needed to stuff the temporary listening attic with absorbing material in order to get the echo down. A bookshelf, more rugs, cushions, etc. Doing it as we speak!
I owned a pair of 8260a’s and their matching subs ( 7270s) they are good, you need the subs of course because the main speakers roll off around 40-45Hz, you don’t need subs with the 8Cs at all.
The nature of new technology is that everything is a moving playing field software and firmware develops this is a good thing.
Dutch&Dutch have instigated a platform upon which they will be able to introduce new developments, I don’t believe Genelec have developed SAM at all.
Keith
The concern of @fredoamigo is valid though. It is very likely that Genelec will be in business 10 years from now and will still support the SAM software. Will the Dutch & Dutch still be here 10 years from now? It's anyone's guess.
It's also the case that Genelec at the moment has much more thorough documentation and a more user-friendly setup. That said, there are reasons why I took the bet on the Dutch and Dutch. I'm fairly certain their documentation, EQ options and UI will get better and better, and it does seem to me like they have a good chance at making it as a company.
It's also the case that Genelec at the moment has much more thorough documentation and a more user-friendly setup. That said, there are reasons why I took the bet on the Dutch and Dutch. I'm fairly certain their documentation, EQ options and UI will get better and better, and it does seem to me like they have a good chance at making it as a company.
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pirad
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I visited D&D website. Apart from 8C speakers they offer 8M-- "for the discerning audio engineers". This one is a true studio
monitor without the backfiring subs and going down to the reasonable 40Hz +/- 1.5dB, -6dB at 35Hz. These are good studio monitors specs. Please have a look at the attached chart from the invaluable Rod Elliott site: http://sound.whsites.net/articles/fadb.htm
The D&D 8M covers all needs of a typical music producer/engineer, even the bass guitar open B-string (31Hz) will be heard OK.
Let's remember though that studio monitors have specific uses. Their main features need to be high SPL, good directivity, tonal fidelity. Acoustically treated rooms and/or near field placement are the norm.
Electronic music and home theatre effects call for lower sounds reproduction. One can always add subs for those.
And then there are the typical home room modes problems, something pro users don't experience, are ready to face or don't care about.
Expectations of my home audience are different from those in pro use. As my friend used to say "nobody walks out of a musical whistling the stage design". Music and movies are social events for us, they play out in the living room, close to the kitchen.( I do have my AV den, mostly for professional reasons, but frankly don't spend much time there, not for pleasure listening to music or watching favourite movies anyway). The priorities for our living room entertainment experience are good quality, ease of use and FAF (Family&Friends Acceptance Factor), not necessarily in this sequence. My main speakers are on wheels, so I can move them around easily for particular listening needs. The distributed subs along the walls are disguised as small side tables (pic), and the single integrated amp is so easy to operate even my dog can turn it on (he did it once). All you need to work it is adjust the volume and play your smartphone or other netflix/itunes/prime/tidal etc source.
That's my home entertainment philosophy . But I fully understand and respect those that want to go with this fun hobby
further and invest time and money to make the home experience ever more perfect.
MULTISUB
monitor without the backfiring subs and going down to the reasonable 40Hz +/- 1.5dB, -6dB at 35Hz. These are good studio monitors specs. Please have a look at the attached chart from the invaluable Rod Elliott site: http://sound.whsites.net/articles/fadb.htm
The D&D 8M covers all needs of a typical music producer/engineer, even the bass guitar open B-string (31Hz) will be heard OK.
Let's remember though that studio monitors have specific uses. Their main features need to be high SPL, good directivity, tonal fidelity. Acoustically treated rooms and/or near field placement are the norm.
Electronic music and home theatre effects call for lower sounds reproduction. One can always add subs for those.
And then there are the typical home room modes problems, something pro users don't experience, are ready to face or don't care about.
Expectations of my home audience are different from those in pro use. As my friend used to say "nobody walks out of a musical whistling the stage design". Music and movies are social events for us, they play out in the living room, close to the kitchen.( I do have my AV den, mostly for professional reasons, but frankly don't spend much time there, not for pleasure listening to music or watching favourite movies anyway). The priorities for our living room entertainment experience are good quality, ease of use and FAF (Family&Friends Acceptance Factor), not necessarily in this sequence. My main speakers are on wheels, so I can move them around easily for particular listening needs. The distributed subs along the walls are disguised as small side tables (pic), and the single integrated amp is so easy to operate even my dog can turn it on (he did it once). All you need to work it is adjust the volume and play your smartphone or other netflix/itunes/prime/tidal etc source.
That's my home entertainment philosophy . But I fully understand and respect those that want to go with this fun hobby
further and invest time and money to make the home experience ever more perfect.
MULTISUB
That's a very cool setup. My home audio philosophy is actually quite similar. And those subs look stunning. Did you build them yourself?
Genelec claim -1db at 29hz.
svart-hvitt
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This is not the first time @Purité Audio is misrepresenting Genelec, claiming things that cannot be supported by fact. Even desperate dealers shouldn't resort to this behaviour.
As usual, Genelec provides frequency curves of high quality in their material (see 8260):
https://www.genelec.com/sites/default/files/media/Studio monitors/SAM Studio Monitors/8260A/genelec_8240_8250_8351_8260_opman.pdf
And: https://www.genelec.com/sites/default/files/media/Studio monitors/SAM Studio Monitors/8260A/genelec_8260a_technical_paper.pdf
FWIW, the frequency response of the Genelec 8260 goes deeper than the specifications of DutchDutch8c.
Even my 8351s go way below 40-45 Hz in-room (the 8260 is a box of 72 litres, the 8351 is only 35 litres big, the DD 8C is 50 litres big).
PS: And there's even more to @Purité Audio's misrepresenting of Genelec. He claims "I don’t believe Genelec have developed SAM at all". On their web site, Genelec writes:
"Genelec, the world's pioneer in active monitoring technology since 1978 has been developing its range of Smart Active Monitoring (SAM) Systems for more than 10 years".
"The SAM Systems project began as an R&D effort in 2000 with the goal of advancing a concept that would bring a higher level of integration of performance and flexibility to the professional user".
Source: https://www.genelec.com/sam-systems-timeline
The question is, what is @Purité Audio doing on ASR except promoting his own products du jour and bashing competing products?
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It is so quaint to see a genuine fan boy, I am not ‘bashing’ Genelec I thought the 8260a’s were a revelation , sub integration was perfect, GLM cured at a stroke some room issues, they were good.
Then the Grimm LS1 speakers appeared and I preferred those to the 8260s, subsequently Kii and Dutch&Dutch at this price point you have to listen to everything.
Keith
Then the Grimm LS1 speakers appeared and I preferred those to the 8260s, subsequently Kii and Dutch&Dutch at this price point you have to listen to everything.
Keith
svart-hvitt
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@Purité Audio , I was referring to the fact that you are lying, repeatedly, when writing about Genelec*. ASR has no need for liars. Integrity is a cornerstone of science and your spreading false information with an agenda is of no use for ASR members.
*https://www.gearslutz.com/board/showpost.php?p=13231047&postcount=1418
The chap from Tymphany told me that they made drivers for Genelec , this was on the Genelec stand in Munich, why would he lie?
Ikka states that the speaker he has been working on does not, as you are aware Genelec make a great number of loudspeakers.
Frankly I don’t care over much where Genelec source their components .
If Genelec made a ground breaking loudspeaker I would stock it.
Keith
Ikka states that the speaker he has been working on does not, as you are aware Genelec make a great number of loudspeakers.
Frankly I don’t care over much where Genelec source their components .
If Genelec made a ground breaking loudspeaker I would stock it.
Keith
svart-hvitt
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This is the background of the Tymphany story you made:
https://www.gearslutz.com/board/showpost.php?p=13232608&postcount=1423
And now this where you claim poor bass handling of Genelec speaker 8260 which is much bigger than DD8C, as well as claiming that Genelec didn't develop their DSP software.
I don't get it why you lie to push your products.
I feel very certain that Keith @Purité Audio doesn't deliberately lie about competing products. He seems to be an honest chap that gets very excited about certain speakers and audio products, and who dismisses (a bit too easily?) products he doesn't like that much. Remember that Kii temporarily threw him out of their dealer network because he was open about the fact that many listeners seemed to prefer the D&Ds, even though the Kiis command a higher pricer tag (so possibly higher margin for him?). Doesn't look to me like "desperate dealing".
But yes, it's a virtue to be precise and correct when talking about competitor products!
But yes, it's a virtue to be precise and correct when talking about competitor products!
If the room is rectangular symmetric placement across width and along length does cancel the odd order axial modes along those dimensions, e.g. a sub in each corner. It also greatly reduces response variation with position, so the remaining even order axial modes are much more amenable to being EQ'd away. Worth bearing in mind that for that sort of symmetric placement to work the subs must be driven with the same signal, i.e. they must not be individually time aligned to the listening position. If they are individually time aligned the modal cancellation does not happen (unless one were foolish/unfortunate enough to be sat dead centre of width and length
).
There is no ‘background ‘ to the story, I was chatting to a chap at Munich on the Genelec stand who happened to work for Tymphany , I didn’t realise it was a secret that Tymphany made drivers for Genelec.
Either the chap was lying or Genelec would prefer people not to know who makes their drivers, in either circumstance it really is of little consequence to me.
I may still have the in-room measurements for my 8260a’s I will have a look for them but it was eight or so years ago.
I wouldn’t have added 2x 7270 subs if I hadn’t thought them necessary though.
Keith
Either the chap was lying or Genelec would prefer people not to know who makes their drivers, in either circumstance it really is of little consequence to me.
I may still have the in-room measurements for my 8260a’s I will have a look for them but it was eight or so years ago.
I wouldn’t have added 2x 7270 subs if I hadn’t thought them necessary though.
Keith
I think keith's too much enthusiasm can be sometimes unproductive, even if it is justified about the 8c ..
it is normal here to speak objectively about the competition of the 8c with their qualities and also their possible defects . but I also think that it is allowed to say that subjectively what one prefers
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