Dutch & Dutch 8Cs

[Purité Audio]

The Grimms are good, they were designed from first principles, wide baffle, sub on the ground etc, no cardioid, Grimm recommend an extreme 45 degree toe-in crossing in front of the listener , the ‘BE’ version we had here is much more expensive than the 8Cs.
But extra resolution that simply isn’t true, the cardioid response simply allows you to hear more.
I believe Bruno presented the Kii prototype to Grimm and they declined to produce it, hence Kii was born.
If you really want a valid comparison then you have to hear both ideally in your own room I realise that can be difficult.
Keith

 

[Martijn Mensink]

Relatively positive the Grimms would still have won, even if the test were properly level matched. My guess is that the two speakers are likely similar enough(tonally) that the price bias in favor of the Grimms would win the day. Only way I see the 8C winning a public shootout like that is if the speakers were just presented as A, B, C, with no mention of price. Also, the participants themselves would need to be blind, so that their expectation bias couldn't influence the crowd.

These are all valid points. And who knows, in a completely bias-free test the Grimms may still be considered best. They are equipped with top of the line SEAS drivers and the Motional FeedBack considerably reduces distortion in the bass. The 8c's constant directivity to low frequencies offers relatively greater benefits in smaller rooms. I could have lived with the outcome that the Grimms were the best of the bunch. It was just the exaggerated adjectives that annoyed me a bit.

I must say, though. The audio comparison over youtube thing is something I'm very skeptical of. The next blind listening test I host, I'll likely record and upload the audio somewhere, just out of curiosity to see how closely the blind internet results track with the in person results .

Skepticism is the only valid perspective here. Of course, the approach is flawed, but it does give a listener at home some idea of the differences. And there's room for improvement. Who knows how good this could become in the future? Higher-Order Ambisonics downmixed to binaural, anyone?

At Dutch & Dutch we occasionally do blind tests. In my experience, they're difficult to do well. In what capacity do you host blind tests?

*Edit: also, do you have links to the actual audio clips on their site. I wasn't able to find the shootout audio from the home site.

First you'll have to register an account, then click on Samples.
https://alpha-audio.net/

It seems to be a bit buggy, I've had issues logging in. If you can't get it to work, please send me a PM and I'll send you a download link.

 

[frangle]

Does anyone know if it is possible to do basic control (e.g. on/standby, maybe gain) of the 8c via HTTP commands for interfacing with an automation system? If so, are there some details available somewhere?

Thanks

 

[jhsg]

Hi, I’ve got a set of 8c’s coming and just reading through all the forums.

how does standby work? Does it automatically go into standby when not in use or do you need to switch it into standby using the app?

 

[frangle]

@jhsg You need to switch to standby using the App (web ui) - the main reason I asked the question about HTTP control above. It means that you need to keep a browser tab readily accessible. Also I find that the discovery is not 100% meaning that often I have to refresh the browser page (even when opening a new one) to get to the app and the Standby button.

Initially I disabled the front panel power LED but re-enabled after I found that I was forgetting to turn them off regularly. It is also useful as occasionally I find on hard resets, one will power up in standby and the other not.

All of this could be solved by the user if there were commands available / published for getting and setting standby status as you can integrate into an automation app. It would also be good to set level, as I alternate between 0dB and -12dB for focused listening versus everyday so I can keep my player software volume control near max.

This is my only criticism of these speakers.

 

[jhsg]

@jhsg You need to switch to standby using the App (web ui) - the main reason I asked the question about HTTP control above. It means that you need to keep a browser tab readily accessible. Also I find that the discovery is not 100% meaning that often I have to refresh the browser page (even when opening a new one) to get to the app and the Standby button.

Initially I disabled the front panel power LED but re-enabled after I found that I was forgetting to turn them off regularly. It is also useful as occasionally I find on hard resets, one will power up in standby and the other not.

All of this could be solved by the user if there were commands available / published for getting and setting standby status as you can integrate into an automation app. It would also be good to set level, as I alternate between 0dB and -12dB for focused listening versus everyday so I can keep my player software volume control near max.

This is my only criticism of these speakers.

Thanks. I’ve got a set coming in the mail now. If this is the biggest criticism of the speakers, I’m looking forward to plugging them in!

 

[jhsg]

p.s. I agree with your comments re automation integration. That would be handy!

 

[jhsg]

Has anyone experienced any latency problems when using the 8c’s for tv or movies?

 

[FrantzM]

All n'all, now that we have more trusted voices in objective reviewing, the people at Dutch and Dutch need to send one to be Klippel-ed ... Why not send a pair, or just one to Amir? ... I suppose I am speaking for a good number here...

 

[TimVG]

All n'all, now that we have more trusted voices in objective reviewing, the people at Dutch and Dutch need to send one to be Klippel-ed ... Why not send a pair, or just one to Amir? ... I suppose I am speaking for a good number here...

@hardisj Keep an eye on Erin's audio corner - he'll be doing just that in the near future.

 

[Purité Audio]

Has anyone experienced any latency problems when using the 8c’s for tv or movies?

Latency is pretty low as standard but there is a ‘low latency’ option accessed via the 8C’s app.
Keith

 

[aro03]

Has anyone experienced any latency problems when using the 8c’s for tv or movies?

I use my 8C's for tv and movies daily. I have not experienced any issues, and don't find it necessary to use low latency mode. My 8C's are connected to my LG OLED tv by TOSLINK via a miniDSP SHD studio (note - i do not use dirac on the SHD).

I do apply some video delay using LG's internal AV sync adjustment, although i find it hard to detect a difference with it off.

 

[Martijn Mensink]

@jhsg You need to switch to standby using the App (web ui) - the main reason I asked the question about HTTP control above. It means that you need to keep a browser tab readily accessible. Also I find that the discovery is not 100% meaning that often I have to refresh the browser page (even when opening a new one) to get to the app and the Standby button.

Initially I disabled the front panel power LED but re-enabled after I found that I was forgetting to turn them off regularly. It is also useful as occasionally I find on hard resets, one will power up in standby and the other not.

All of this could be solved by the user if there were commands available / published for getting and setting standby status as you can integrate into an automation app. It would also be good to set level, as I alternate between 0dB and -12dB for focused listening versus everyday so I can keep my player software volume control near max.

This is my only criticism of these speakers.

This is good feedback. Discovery in the browser is a bit iffy because browsers have all sorts of restrictions with respect to activity on the LAN. The native app we're working on should deal with that.

Using the LED as a signal is a good idea. We're not working on that right now, but it's something for on the backlog.

 

[Martijn Mensink]

Does anyone know if it is possible to do basic control (e.g. on/standby, maybe gain) of the 8c via HTTP commands for interfacing with an automation system? If so, are there some details available somewhere?

Thanks

Not right now. We don't have a public API. This could definitely be useful, but unfortunately we currently have other priorities.

 

[Martijn Mensink]

Has anyone experienced any latency problems when using the 8c’s for tv or movies?

No. In low latency-mode the latency is just over 3 ms, in linear-phase mode it's about 33 ms. In low-latency mode it's impossible to notice the latency, in the linear-phase mode, it's very difficult to perceive it. It's less than a frame at 24 fps.

 

[jhsg]

Well......

My new dutch 8c’s arrived today. As I dismantled my 60k hifi system I was thinking, damn - I hope this is worth it!!

5 hours later, some spilt sand on the carpet and and I’ve now been listening to them for about 30 mins. Initially they sounded a little dry but now I’m getting ready to sell all my old gear. Very impressed.

 

[jhsg]

Just wondering what results people are getting with the front wall spacing? Is less (10cm) better?

 

[Purité Audio]

Between 10cm and 50cm is generally advised, not just for D&D any speaker to avoid cancellation.
Keith

 

[jhsg]

Between 10cm and 50cm is generally advised, not just for D&D any speaker to avoid cancellation.
Keith

Thanks Keith.. My question was more about whether 10cm or 50cm is better or if it didn’t matter?

 

[mitchco]

Hi @jhsg congrats on your purchase on a pair of very accurate sound reproducers. Check out my review of the 8c's.

As @Martijn Mensink , designer of the 8c’s explains, “Basically, the first comb-filtering dip caused by the front-wall reflection is shifted to a frequency above the working range of the subwoofers. For instance, when the distance is 40 cm, the first boundary dip will be at 215 Hz. The woofers only go up to 100 Hz. The wall increases the output by a maximum of 6 decibels and you get a very nice coherent first wave-front, with no smearing in the time-domain. Above 100 Hz the cardioid midrange takes over. Whereas the subwoofers are using the boundary sort of like a springboard, in the midrange it's as if the wall isn't actually there, because very little sound is radiated towards it by the cardioid. That's why you can place the 8c's so close to the front wall! “

The takeaway is in-between 10 and 50cm should work just fine. Enjoy the music!