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Dutch & Dutch 8Cs
- Thread starter Dialectic
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I was also skeptical but it does make a difference, it sounds pretty much like nothing else (some hate it) and when I heard the Grimm's tweeter in the video (obviously not a perfect way to knkw how it sounds) it had that special openness that Focal's tweeter has.
I really doubt any company would go into the trouble of producing a tweeter from one of the most dangerous materials in the world, and obviously also more costly, if it had 0 impact on sound.
I really doubt any company would go into the trouble of producing a tweeter from one of the most dangerous materials in the world, and obviously also more costly, if it had 0 impact on sound.
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I agree, in particular since SEAS is producing the tweeter and assuming any danger. Grimm is just buying a modified version:
http://www.seas.no/index.php?option...06-t29b001&catid=50:excel-tweeters&Itemid=360
I was and am suspicious of exotic materials. It does sound more refined on the top end to me, but it's perfectly possible that was in part due to the fact I was just happy to get my speakers back (I had to ship them to Holland and it took a while).
All that said I've never had kit that I enjoyed nearly as much as my Grimm set up. D & D too.
http://www.seas.no/index.php?option...06-t29b001&catid=50:excel-tweeters&Itemid=360
I was and am suspicious of exotic materials. It does sound more refined on the top end to me, but it's perfectly possible that was in part due to the fact I was just happy to get my speakers back (I had to ship them to Holland and it took a while).
All that said I've never had kit that I enjoyed nearly as much as my Grimm set up. D & D too.
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OP
Thread Starter
#1,310
Thread Starter
#1,310
Ok, I opened the video at 6:20, and a Frenchman who is probably too well-dressed to be from the engineering department was talking about how the inverted dome tweeter is a signature of the Focal brand. That's a marketing video presented by an audiophile website as informational.
This is one of those old (and wrong) audiophile chestnuts that just won't die.
__________
I'm sure there have been well-engineered speakers that use beryllium drivers. Yamaha released in the NS-1000s in the '70s! But now it is being presented as a new and game-changing material.
I have traversed these roads before.
I don't know how we got onto Focal speakers in a thread about the D&D 8Cs.
The Grimms are interesting, and sadly, I have not had occasion to hear them. I have assumed, perhaps wrongly, that they represented an earlier--and perhaps more audiophile-friendly approach--to providing what the 8Cs, Kii Threes and GGNTKT speakers offer.
This is one of those old (and wrong) audiophile chestnuts that just won't die.
__________
I'm sure there have been well-engineered speakers that use beryllium drivers. Yamaha released in the NS-1000s in the '70s! But now it is being presented as a new and game-changing material.
I have traversed these roads before.
I don't know how we got onto Focal speakers in a thread about the D&D 8Cs.
The Grimms are interesting, and sadly, I have not had occasion to hear them. I have assumed, perhaps wrongly, that they represented an earlier--and perhaps more audiophile-friendly approach--to providing what the 8Cs, Kii Threes and GGNTKT speakers offer.
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You didn't wait for the part where he says it's hard as a diamond 
But OK
I still don't think any company would use Uber expensive materiels for no reason.
But OK
I still don't think any company would use Uber expensive materiels for no reason.
. Doesn’t necessarily matter if it really improves sound quality. What matters is that the customer thinks it does.- Joined
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The SEAS Beryllium tweeter is really good. It does indeed have lower distortion than the SEAS tweeter we're using in the 8c. Also, it has higher efficiency and a response that extends into the ultrasonic region. So on paper, in some ways it's a better driver than the one we're using in the 8c. But the 8c's tweeter plays plenty loud for that particular design and we're not interested in ultrasonics (I don't believe the science supports the idea that ultrasonics are important, but I haven't totally made up my mind). We're sometimes asked about upgrade options, particularly by customers in Asia. We could do it and charge a significant premium for an upgrade to a Beryllium tweeter, but it doesn't really sit well with me. The 8c is a very well-balanced design as it is and I don't like the idea of messing with that. It doesn't fit well with Dutch & Dutch's engineering-based design approach. We aim for performance that's indistinguishable from perfect by the human ear. Anything better than that is over-engineering and we consider it wasteful.
I haven't tested the SEAS Beryllium myself and I haven't listened to it (for whatever that's worth), but I doubt its lower distortion will make an audible difference at normal operating levels. The thing is, the best modern dome tweeters with mundane dome materials have distortion levels that are already virtually inaudible unless those tweeters are pushed to their dynamic limits. Regardless of all that, we may use the SEAS Beryllium tweeter at some point in the future. Why? If we decide to make a speaker that plays louder than the 8c and at a higher price point, the SEAS seems like a good option. For some people and use-cases, the significantly higher price of this tweeter will be worth it.
I haven't tested the SEAS Beryllium myself and I haven't listened to it (for whatever that's worth), but I doubt its lower distortion will make an audible difference at normal operating levels. The thing is, the best modern dome tweeters with mundane dome materials have distortion levels that are already virtually inaudible unless those tweeters are pushed to their dynamic limits. Regardless of all that, we may use the SEAS Beryllium tweeter at some point in the future. Why? If we decide to make a speaker that plays louder than the 8c and at a higher price point, the SEAS seems like a good option. For some people and use-cases, the significantly higher price of this tweeter will be worth it.
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Well the material the dome is made from will influence the frequency at which first breakup occurs, but there are other things influencing the overall response of a tweeter too.
The key thing about beryllium is that it has an unusual ratio between density and stiffness.
Most metals have the same specific stiffness, titanium is half the density of steel but is also half as stiff, ally is a third the density of steel but is also a third as stiff, and so on, so all very close in potential performance.
Beryllium and boron both have superior mechanical properties in terms of increasing resonant frequency but boron is difficult to make anything but fibres, they build them up on a wire and it is slow and expensive, so we get boron cantilevers on pickup cartridges but not boron tweeter domes.
Beryllium is also expensive and difficult to manufacture domes in, so will always be expensive.
The shape of the dome also influences its stiffness, hence breakup frequency as well as dispersion.
Given that the stiffness of a panel is proportional to its thickness cubed an ally dome will have a higher breakup frequency than a titanium dome but only by a tiny amount and nowhere near beryllium.
OTOH all the soft domes will break up in the audible frequency range and still can sound fine with the appropriate damping goo applied. It will also "go modal" above its breakup frequency so it starts radiating a bit like a BMR or NXT type device up there, so its dispersion will also be effected.
IMHO having breakup happening in the audible range is something designers know how to ameliorate (it happens in all drivers) but I think aiming for the drivers to all behave like pistons in their working range is a worthy goal, though difficult.
After all most people use static thinking and argument even when discussing dynamic devices (the amount of absolute bollox written about record players is the most absurd) so having a speaker that actually is working the way most people think they all do is a worthy objective
Pretty well every bass/mid driver will have breakup in the frequency range where the ear is most sensitive. If the crossover doesn't attenuate this ringing enough it is, IMO, by far the most likely cause of a harsh sound rather than any shortcomings in any tweeter which is "cruising" along un-stressed at these frequencies.
The key thing about beryllium is that it has an unusual ratio between density and stiffness.
Most metals have the same specific stiffness, titanium is half the density of steel but is also half as stiff, ally is a third the density of steel but is also a third as stiff, and so on, so all very close in potential performance.
Beryllium and boron both have superior mechanical properties in terms of increasing resonant frequency but boron is difficult to make anything but fibres, they build them up on a wire and it is slow and expensive, so we get boron cantilevers on pickup cartridges but not boron tweeter domes.
Beryllium is also expensive and difficult to manufacture domes in, so will always be expensive.
The shape of the dome also influences its stiffness, hence breakup frequency as well as dispersion.
Given that the stiffness of a panel is proportional to its thickness cubed an ally dome will have a higher breakup frequency than a titanium dome but only by a tiny amount and nowhere near beryllium.
OTOH all the soft domes will break up in the audible frequency range and still can sound fine with the appropriate damping goo applied. It will also "go modal" above its breakup frequency so it starts radiating a bit like a BMR or NXT type device up there, so its dispersion will also be effected.
IMHO having breakup happening in the audible range is something designers know how to ameliorate (it happens in all drivers) but I think aiming for the drivers to all behave like pistons in their working range is a worthy goal, though difficult.
After all most people use static thinking and argument even when discussing dynamic devices (the amount of absolute bollox written about record players is the most absurd) so having a speaker that actually is working the way most people think they all do is a worthy objective
Pretty well every bass/mid driver will have breakup in the frequency range where the ear is most sensitive. If the crossover doesn't attenuate this ringing enough it is, IMO, by far the most likely cause of a harsh sound rather than any shortcomings in any tweeter which is "cruising" along un-stressed at these frequencies.
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The Grimms are more from the world of professional audio -- for example Cécile McLorin Salvant's Dreams and Daggers was mixed on them and the Concertgebouw uses them for their recordings (or has). They are room friendly due to the crossing pattern described by Purité Audio, but they assume a decent or treated room like one usually finds in a studio. My room is not treated and not big, but for whatever reason it sounds pretty good. And that's just luck, the crossing pattern doesn't help with bass. The D & D's preference for being against a wall is fantastic for all of us who live in cities and don't have the luxury of cavernous spaces. So when I said that I should compare the two in the same position, actually you can't -- and that is to D & D's credit.
OP
Thread Starter
#1,319
Thread Starter
#1,319
The Kiis are excellent. I heard the 8Cs and Kiis side by side in Keith's listening room (I seem to recall that the listening distance was around 3m), and on a lot of program material, the difference between the two models of speaker was imperceptible by me and my wife. I'm accustomed to demos in which different speakers sound different in obvious ways. This was not such a demo.
The most noticeable difference was the 8Cs' superior bottom-octave performance, although the Kiis' low end was impressive for their size.
With Grimm, Kii, D&D, and now GGNTKT, it feels as though there is some long overdue progress in loudspeaker design.
The most noticeable difference was the 8Cs' superior bottom-octave performance, although the Kiis' low end was impressive for their size.
With Grimm, Kii, D&D, and now GGNTKT, it feels as though there is some long overdue progress in loudspeaker design.
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