• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required as is 20 years of participation in forums (not all true). Come here to have fun, be ready to be teased and not take online life too seriously. We now measure and review equipment for free! Click here for details.

Dutch & Dutch 8Cs

OP
Dialectic

Dialectic

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Sep 26, 2017
Messages
1,603
Likes
2,045
Location
New York City area
Thread Starter #1,302
I think it's a SEAS tweeter. When I changed tweeters -- I upgraded -- it definitely made a difference. Less artifacts and more natural.
I'm very curious what the measurements show about this tweeter. When I read of drivers with exotic materials, my audio skepticism tends to kick in, and I'm speaking as a former owner of loudspeakers with exotic tweeters.
 
Joined
Feb 18, 2019
Messages
74
Likes
43
I'm very curious what the measurements show about this tweeter. When I read of drivers with exotic materials, my audio skepticism tends to kick in, and I'm speaking as a former owner of loudspeakers with exotic tweeters.
Agreed. Silver wire sounds silvery -- ack!

This is what they say "We added a new Beryllium tweeter, which was co-developed with Seas. It extends the frequency range and has 9 dB less distortion than our original tweeter."
 

Pearljam5000

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Oct 12, 2020
Messages
624
Likes
565
I'm very curious what the measurements show about this tweeter. When I read of drivers with exotic materials, my audio skepticism tends to kick in, and I'm speaking as a former owner of loudspeakers with exotic tweeters.
I was also skeptical but it does make a difference, it sounds pretty much like nothing else (some hate it) and when I heard the Grimm's tweeter in the video (obviously not a perfect way to knkw how it sounds) it had that special openness that Focal's tweeter has.
I really doubt any company would go into the trouble of producing a tweeter from one of the most dangerous materials in the world, and obviously also more costly, if it had 0 impact on sound.
 
OP
Dialectic

Dialectic

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Sep 26, 2017
Messages
1,603
Likes
2,045
Location
New York City area
Thread Starter #1,305
I really doubt any company would go into the trouble of producing a tweeter from one of the most dangerous materials in the world, and obviously also more costly, if it had 0 impact on sound.
I don't.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Feb 18, 2019
Messages
74
Likes
43
I agree, in particular since SEAS is producing the tweeter and assuming any danger. Grimm is just buying a modified version:

http://www.seas.no/index.php?option...06-t29b001&catid=50:excel-tweeters&Itemid=360

I was and am suspicious of exotic materials. It does sound more refined on the top end to me, but it's perfectly possible that was in part due to the fact I was just happy to get my speakers back (I had to ship them to Holland and it took a while).

All that said I've never had kit that I enjoyed nearly as much as my Grimm set up. D & D too.
 
Last edited:
OP
Dialectic

Dialectic

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Sep 26, 2017
Messages
1,603
Likes
2,045
Location
New York City area
Thread Starter #1,308
You're completely wrong,
Skip to : 6:20, he explains why Focal uses Beryllium
I will not be skipping through this marketing video. Thanks :)
 

Pearljam5000

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Oct 12, 2020
Messages
624
Likes
565
Lol it's not marketing, it's scientific facts about the material, but OK.
Anyways i did listen to Solo 6 and the Beryllium tweeter does have a unique sound.
I honestly don't believe that plastic will sound as good and materiel has 0 impact on sound.
EVERYTHING makes a difference.
 
OP
Dialectic

Dialectic

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Sep 26, 2017
Messages
1,603
Likes
2,045
Location
New York City area
Thread Starter #1,310
Lol it's not marketing, it's scientific facts about the material, but OK.
Ok, I opened the video at 6:20, and a Frenchman who is probably too well-dressed to be from the engineering department was talking about how the inverted dome tweeter is a signature of the Focal brand. That's a marketing video presented by an audiophile website as informational.

EVERYTHING makes a difference.
This is one of those old (and wrong) audiophile chestnuts that just won't die.
__________

I'm sure there have been well-engineered speakers that use beryllium drivers. Yamaha released in the NS-1000s in the '70s! But now it is being presented as a new and game-changing material.

I have traversed these roads before.

I don't know how we got onto Focal speakers in a thread about the D&D 8Cs.

The Grimms are interesting, and sadly, I have not had occasion to hear them. I have assumed, perhaps wrongly, that they represented an earlier--and perhaps more audiophile-friendly approach--to providing what the 8Cs, Kii Threes and GGNTKT speakers offer.
 

Pearljam5000

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Oct 12, 2020
Messages
624
Likes
565
Ok, I opened the video at 6:20, and a Frenchman who is probably too well-dressed to be from the engineering department was talking about how the inverted dome tweeter is a signature of the Focal brand. That's a marketing video presented by an audiophile website as informational.


This is one of those old (and wrong) audiophile chestnuts that just won't die.
__________

I'm sure there have been well-engineered speakers that use beryllium drivers. Yamaha released in the NS-1000s in the '70s! But now it is being presented as a new and game-changing material.

I have traversed these roads before.

I don't know how we got onto Focal speakers in a thread about the D&D 8Cs.

The Grimms are interesting, and sadly, I have not had occasion to hear them. I have assumed, perhaps wrongly, that they represented an earlier--and perhaps more audiophile-friendly approach--to providing what the 8Cs, Kii Threes and GGNTKT speakers offer.
You didn't wait for the part where he says it's hard as a diamond ;)
But OK
I still don't think any company would use Uber expensive materiels for no reason.
 

richard12511

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 23, 2020
Messages
1,870
Likes
2,546
You didn't wait for the part where he says it's hard as a diamond ;)
But OK
I still don't think any company would use Uber expensive materiels for no reason.
Maybe it allows them to charge even more uber prices ;). Doesn’t necessarily matter if it really improves sound quality. What matters is that the customer thinks it does.
 

Martijn Mensink

Member
Industry Insider
Joined
May 4, 2018
Messages
27
Likes
142
The SEAS Beryllium tweeter is really good. It does indeed have lower distortion than the SEAS tweeter we're using in the 8c. Also, it has higher efficiency and a response that extends into the ultrasonic region. So on paper, in some ways it's a better driver than the one we're using in the 8c. But the 8c's tweeter plays plenty loud for that particular design and we're not interested in ultrasonics (I don't believe the science supports the idea that ultrasonics are important, but I haven't totally made up my mind). We're sometimes asked about upgrade options, particularly by customers in Asia. We could do it and charge a significant premium for an upgrade to a Beryllium tweeter, but it doesn't really sit well with me. The 8c is a very well-balanced design as it is and I don't like the idea of messing with that. It doesn't fit well with Dutch & Dutch's engineering-based design approach. We aim for performance that's indistinguishable from perfect by the human ear. Anything better than that is over-engineering and we consider it wasteful.

I haven't tested the SEAS Beryllium myself and I haven't listened to it (for whatever that's worth), but I doubt its lower distortion will make an audible difference at normal operating levels. The thing is, the best modern dome tweeters with mundane dome materials have distortion levels that are already virtually inaudible unless those tweeters are pushed to their dynamic limits. Regardless of all that, we may use the SEAS Beryllium tweeter at some point in the future. Why? If we decide to make a speaker that plays louder than the 8c and at a higher price point, the SEAS seems like a good option. For some people and use-cases, the significantly higher price of this tweeter will be worth it.
 
Last edited:

Frank Dernie

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Mar 24, 2016
Messages
4,396
Likes
9,306
Location
Oxfordshire
I'm very curious what the measurements show about this tweeter. When I read of drivers with exotic materials, my audio skepticism tends to kick in, and I'm speaking as a former owner of loudspeakers with exotic tweeters.
Well the material the dome is made from will influence the frequency at which first breakup occurs, but there are other things influencing the overall response of a tweeter too.
The key thing about beryllium is that it has an unusual ratio between density and stiffness.
Most metals have the same specific stiffness, titanium is half the density of steel but is also half as stiff, ally is a third the density of steel but is also a third as stiff, and so on, so all very close in potential performance.
Beryllium and boron both have superior mechanical properties in terms of increasing resonant frequency but boron is difficult to make anything but fibres, they build them up on a wire and it is slow and expensive, so we get boron cantilevers on pickup cartridges but not boron tweeter domes.
Beryllium is also expensive and difficult to manufacture domes in, so will always be expensive.
The shape of the dome also influences its stiffness, hence breakup frequency as well as dispersion.
Given that the stiffness of a panel is proportional to its thickness cubed an ally dome will have a higher breakup frequency than a titanium dome but only by a tiny amount and nowhere near beryllium.
OTOH all the soft domes will break up in the audible frequency range and still can sound fine with the appropriate damping goo applied. It will also "go modal" above its breakup frequency so it starts radiating a bit like a BMR or NXT type device up there, so its dispersion will also be effected.
IMHO having breakup happening in the audible range is something designers know how to ameliorate (it happens in all drivers) but I think aiming for the drivers to all behave like pistons in their working range is a worthy goal, though difficult.
After all most people use static thinking and argument even when discussing dynamic devices (the amount of absolute bollox written about record players is the most absurd) so having a speaker that actually is working the way most people think they all do is a worthy objective :)

Pretty well every bass/mid driver will have breakup in the frequency range where the ear is most sensitive. If the crossover doesn't attenuate this ringing enough it is, IMO, by far the most likely cause of a harsh sound rather than any shortcomings in any tweeter which is "cruising" along un-stressed at these frequencies.
 
Joined
Feb 18, 2019
Messages
74
Likes
43
The Grimms are interesting, and sadly, I have not had occasion to hear them. I have assumed, perhaps wrongly, that they represented an earlier--and perhaps more audiophile-friendly approach--to providing what the 8Cs, Kii Threes and GGNTKT speakers offer.
The Grimms are more from the world of professional audio -- for example Cécile McLorin Salvant's Dreams and Daggers was mixed on them and the Concertgebouw uses them for their recordings (or has). They are room friendly due to the crossing pattern described by Purité Audio, but they assume a decent or treated room like one usually finds in a studio. My room is not treated and not big, but for whatever reason it sounds pretty good. And that's just luck, the crossing pattern doesn't help with bass. The D & D's preference for being against a wall is fantastic for all of us who live in cities and don't have the luxury of cavernous spaces. So when I said that I should compare the two in the same position, actually you can't -- and that is to D & D's credit.
 

phoenixdogfan

Major Contributor
Joined
Nov 6, 2018
Messages
1,008
Likes
880
The Grimms are more from the world of professional audio -- for example Cécile McLorin Salvant's Dreams and Daggers was mixed on them and the Concertgebouw uses them for their recordings (or has). They are room friendly due to the crossing pattern described by Purité Audio, but they assume a decent or treated room like one usually finds in a studio. My room is not treated and not big, but for whatever reason it sounds pretty good. And that's just luck, the crossing pattern doesn't help with bass. The D & D's preference for being against a wall is fantastic for all of us who live in cities and don't have the luxury of cavernous spaces. So when I said that I should compare the two in the same position, actually you can't -- and that is to D & D's credit.
The D & Ds look like the ultimate small room speaker.
 

Pearljam5000

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Oct 12, 2020
Messages
624
Likes
565
I feel sorry for the Kii Three it used to be the ultimate compact speaker , and now the 8C is stealing all of the attention from it lol
 
OP
Dialectic

Dialectic

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Sep 26, 2017
Messages
1,603
Likes
2,045
Location
New York City area
Thread Starter #1,319
The D & Ds look like the ultimate small room speaker.
I feel sorry for the Kii Three it used to be the ultimate compact speaker , and now the 8C is stealing all of the attention from it lol
The Kiis are excellent. I heard the 8Cs and Kiis side by side in Keith's listening room (I seem to recall that the listening distance was around 3m), and on a lot of program material, the difference between the two models of speaker was imperceptible by me and my wife. I'm accustomed to demos in which different speakers sound different in obvious ways. This was not such a demo.

The most noticeable difference was the 8Cs' superior bottom-octave performance, although the Kiis' low end was impressive for their size.

With Grimm, Kii, D&D, and now GGNTKT, it feels as though there is some long overdue progress in loudspeaker design.
 

phoenixdogfan

Major Contributor
Joined
Nov 6, 2018
Messages
1,008
Likes
880
The Kiis are excellent. I heard the 8Cs and Kiis side by side in Keith's listening room (I seem to recall that the listening distance was around 3m), and on a lot of program material, the difference between the two models of speaker was imperceptible by me and my wife. I'm accustomed to demos in which different speakers sound different in obvious ways. This was not such a demo.

The most noticeable difference was the 8Cs' superior bottom-octave performance, although the Kiis' low end was impressive for their size.

With Grimm, Kii, D&D, and now GGNTKT, it feels as though there is some long overdue progress in loudspeaker design.
Let's don't sleep on the GGNTKT M1s either.
 
Top Bottom