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Dutch & Dutch 8Cs

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Hi @jhsg congrats on your purchase on a pair of very accurate sound reproducers. Check out my review of the 8c's.

As @Martijn Mensink , designer of the 8c’s explains, “Basically, the first comb-filtering dip caused by the front-wall reflection is shifted to a frequency above the working range of the subwoofers. For instance, when the distance is 40 cm, the first boundary dip will be at 215 Hz. The woofers only go up to 100 Hz. The wall increases the output by a maximum of 6 decibels and you get a very nice coherent first wave-front, with no smearing in the time-domain. Above 100 Hz the cardioid midrange takes over. Whereas the subwoofers are using the boundary sort of like a springboard, in the midrange it's as if the wall isn't actually there, because very little sound is radiated towards it by the cardioid. That's why you can place the 8c's so close to the front wall! “

The takeaway is in-between 10 and 50cm should work just fine. Enjoy the music!
Thanks for the information.. Great review too.

I originally had the speakers at about 20cm's and have just moved them in so they are about 13cm's out (power cable / XLR need some room). They seem to sound better closer to the wall. My challenge (or at least a perceived challenge) is the feature wall behind my speakers - see attached image. The wall width is just a little less than the width of the speakers. My non technical brain is telling me perhaps having the 8c's closer to this wall is better because when further out the sub's will disperse wider than the wall.

Thanks everyone for your help... Being the new owner means I am probably going to the most active dumb question person on here for a while!

Regards,
John

Picture 1.png
 
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100hrs in now. They’re sounding great! Bass has loosened up and the mids have softened a bit. Really loving these speakers.
 
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You mean your ears adjusted to the speakers?
No I don’t believe this is the case. I have another system in my house plus a system at work and my car. My ears have plenty of data points to be able to detect one of those systems starting to sound different.
 
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Are there people who combine the DD8c's with subwoofers? I can use them with- and without subwoofers just by choosing the setup in my amplifier. This means that I use the sub-outs of my amp (and crossovers).

I'm getting to the point of selling my subs because in my current setup they (hardly) benefit to the sound. I almost never play out loud. At the same point it feels like a waste to sell two excellent JL-E112 subwoofers when I can combine them to the DD8c's to get 100% perfect bass (even though the bass is excellent without subs).

What could be the (theoretical) benefits of using subwoofers with the DD8c's, what whould be the best crossover point? And how would you do it? Or maybe combine them with a cardioid subwoofer? I am just a sucker for good bass-management :)
 

jhsg

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Are there people who combine the DD8c's with subwoofers? I can use them with- and without subwoofers just by choosing the setup in my amplifier. This means that I use the sub-outs of my amp (and crossovers).

I'm getting to the point of selling my subs because in my current setup they (hardly) benefit to the sound. I almost never play out loud. At the same point it feels like a waste to sell two excellent JL-E112 subwoofers when I can combine them to the DD8c's to get 100% perfect bass (even though the bass is excellent without subs).

What could be the (theoretical) benefits of using subwoofers with the DD8c's, what whould be the best crossover point? And how would you do it? Or maybe combine them with a cardioid subwoofer? I am just a sucker for good bass-management :)
i tried it with a pair of rel t9i’s but quickly disconnected the subs as I feel the bass was good enough on their own.

There’s a good Facebook group for the 8c’s where this issue is discussed. https://www.facebook.com/groups/449617959639445/
 
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Dialectic

Dialectic

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What could be the (theoretical) benefits of using subwoofers with the DD8c's, what whould be the best crossover point? And how would you do it? Or maybe combine them with a cardioid subwoofer? I am just a sucker for good bass-management :)
Reducing distortion.

I'd do it with a crossover implemented in software.

A cardioid subwoofer would be nice, but I don't know of any designs for domestic applications.

I was planning to add subs to my system, but the bass of the 8Cs on their own is adequate at my near-/mid-field listening position.
 
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@Dialectic

I now see in your signature that you are using BACCH software. Very interesting. I have heard BACCH software in 2 different setups, both with DD8c's. I was impressed with a few songs, there were songs without much difference and sometimes I prefered BACCH to be off..

So I have mixed feelings about BACCH. But this were short impressions. For how long do you use BACCH? And what are your ideas about this software? Do you always engage BACCH? Or maybe only with f.e. classical music? I believe one can do quick and elaborative measurements to install BACCH? I hope that you share some thoughts!
 
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Dialectic

Dialectic

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@Dialectic

I now see in your signature that you are using BACCH software. Very interesting. I have heard BACCH software in 2 different setups, both with DD8c's. I was impressed with a few songs, there were songs without much difference and sometimes I prefered BACCH to be off..

So I have mixed feelings about BACCH. But this were short impressions. For how long do you use BACCH? And what are your ideas about this software? Do you always engage BACCH? Or maybe only with f.e. classical music? I believe one can do quick and elaborative measurements to install BACCH? I hope that you share some thoughts!
I love BACCH and have used it for years now. I leave it engaged whenever I'm listening on my big system. I have never heard a non-BACCH system that provides as realistic a spatial presentation of recordings made in natural acoustic spaces as any of the several BACCH systems I've heard.

So I recommend it. I believe I was the first to use it with the 8Cs--I'm truly a pioneering audiophool--and it works great with them.
 

onion

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I have BACCH with Genelec 8341. The 8351a measures around -7.33dB for loudspeaker directivity index in the Princeton 3D3A lab. With my 8341a, the best I get is around -6 - -7dB cross-talk cancellation in BACCH. I think the D&D8Cs perform significantly better with BACCH based on Dialectic's previous posts (although I can't see any 3D3A measurements for the 8Cs yet).

Even with a lower XTC performance in BACCH compared to the 8Cs, I use it all the time with my Genelec system. It is far superior for 'natural' acoustic recordings. It is also superior for most 'artificial' productions in my subjective opinion. Spatial separation of different sound sources reduces listener fatigue IMO.

I ended up with a Genelec multi-sub system as that managed the bass better than cardioid speakers (I auditioned the Kiis) for my room. If I had a different room, I'd probably have gone for the 8Cs...
 
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