Dutch & Dutch 8C Quasi-Anechoic Spinorama and Measurements

[tuga]

What speakers do you use as your mains?

 

[QMuse]

What speakers do you use as your mains?

Castle Harlech S2. They come in 8 real wood hand crafted veneers, mines are machagony:

 

[Senior NEET Engineer]

lols

 

[tuga]

Castle Harlech S2. They come in 8 real wood hand crafted veneers, mines are machagony:

View attachment 58519

I thought that you had Avon 5s.

 

[QMuse]

What speakers do you use as your mains?

My point is this: what you will find attractive will probably differ from what I will find attractive, and that is normal. But with D&D I see an isse simply because their finish looks "cheap" and of low quality, and that I find offending toward customers as there is certainly enough margin in their price to make high quality finish.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

My point is this: what you will find attractive will probably differ from what I will find attractive, and that is normal. But with D&D I see an isse simply because their finish looks "cheap" and of low quality, and that I find offending toward customers as there is certainly enough margin in their price to make high quality finish.

I did not find "their finish looks "cheap" and of low quality" when I had them in my living room. What I took exception to is the clunky shape, particularly as it was perched on a stand, and my wife and I object such configurations, including the more svelte Kii Three. Now, if D&D offered an acoustically and esthetically integrated subwoofer base as does Kii, we would find that quite acceptable.

 

[napilopez]

"Cheap" looks horrible and regular is barely better.

No, they don't. But, unlike D&D, they are professional studio monitors that were not designed for living room so they don't need to look nice.

1) The cheap version is called the 8c Studio so they are meant precisely to be tucked into a studio.

2) For the regular version, you obviously have quite different tastes, and that's fine, but I don't think you can make a broader argument to besmirch the 8c's from an industrial design perspective.

The 8c 'proper' has a solid oak cabinet - as in, not a veneer over MDF. That's a rarity enough even among high end speakers.

I really like how the 8cs look, at least the two-tone versions - the white in particular. I like the use of real wood rather than veneers. I like the boxy shape and how the waveguide is actually part of the front fascia rather than a separate component as on most speakers with a waveguide. I like that despite the design they still allow direct access to internal components. And they actually seem like someone took the time out to design a rather minimalist speaker rather than make something flashy for the sake of it.

If I had one qualm about the 8cs looks it's somewhat along the lines as what @Kal Rubinson said. While I personally do like the look of a bookshelf speaker on a stand, I do wish the 8Cs had a better custom stand that better integrated with their design.

 

[jhaider]

Now, if D&D offered an acoustically and esthetically integrated subwoofer base as does Kii, we would find that quite acceptable.

A shallow tower with the subs in the bottom section would be a better form factor for home use too, IMO.

 

[QMuse]

1) The cheap version is called the 8c Studio so they are meant precisely to be tucked into a studio.

2) For the regular version, you obviously have quite different tastes, and that's fine, but I don't think you can make a broader argument to besmirch the 8c's from an industrial design perspective.

The 8c 'proper' has a solid oak cabinet - as in, not a veneer over MDF. That's a rarity enough even among high end speakers.

I really like how the 8cs look, at least the two-tone versions - the white in particular. I like the use of real wood rather than veneers. I like the boxy shape and how the waveguide is actually part of the front fascia rather than a separate component as on most speakers with a waveguide. I like that despite the design they still allow direct access to internal components. And they actually seem like someone took the time out to design a rather minimalist speaker rather than make something flashy for the sake of it.

If I had one qualm about the 8cs looks it's somewhat along the lines as what @Kal Rubinson said. While I personally do like the look of a bookshelf speaker on a stand, I do wish the 8Cs had a better custom stand that better integrated with their design.

Well, high quality MDF is generally speaking better material for loudspeaker cabinets than oak as it is denser and has equal consistency over the material board. The shape if the box is fine, it's just that i don't like the colour of the natural oak commbined with black or white. It has kind of "Ikea look" to me.

I fully agree with the stand remark that @Kal Rubinson and you mentioned - only custom stand would look good with them.

 

[Mauro]

It did indeed block part of one of the vents but it seemed to have a negligible impact on the frequency response. I double checked this by simply moving the microphone vertically instead of turning the speaker; the nulls were in the same spots and moving the microphone led to more variation in the frequency response.

I've not yet heard the Kii's, but that's on the list.



Note I didn't say these were particularly narrow, but they aren't particularly wide either. I find myself usually preferring very wide directivity designs .

Also note I wouldn't consider any of the wider directivity speakers I've heard 'better' but I did think they sometimes sound bigger. The D&D 8C when toed in has a very sharp and focused soundstage, but not huge. You can vary this rather dramatically with varying degrees of toe in though.

As I've said in other posts, I find it easier to get a sense of directivity from horizontal SPL charts. If found that good speakers with deep waveguide speakers tend to show very similar patterns from 1K up.

For example, in the narrowish camp, here's the 8C again:
View attachment 54857

60 degrees off-axis, it's down roughly 10 dB at 8K. 75 degrees its down roughly 15 dB

Similar behavior can be seen in the KEF R3 (note I use 15 degree intervals in my old measurements):
View attachment 54858

And Buchardt S400:View attachment 54859

And the Neumann KH80:
View attachment 54860

Compare that to what I consider wider directivity speakers, which usually have minimal or no waveguides. They are usually "messier" than speakers with good waveguides, but tend to maintain more energy into the treble, at last up to 6-10K, after which there's a steeper treble drop off. There's a small bit discussion in Toole's book that some people might prefer a messier wide directivity design to a cleaner narrow directivity design. Anecdotally, I think this is sometimes the case for me, but of course not always.

Focal Chora:
View attachment 54862

At 60 degrees it's only down 4-7 dB. 5-10 at 75 degrees.

iLoud Micro Monitor:
View attachment 54863

Q Acoustics Concept 20:
View attachment 54864

JBL L100 Classic:
View attachment 54865

Devialet Phantom Reactor:
View attachment 54866

Note that this is what the Salon 2 seems to do very well with its fancy shallow waveguide and tapered cabinets. It has both the off-axis evenness of a speaker with a good deep waveguide while having the width (high SPL levels off axis) of a speaker with no waveguide.

View attachment 54867

At 8KHz, It's only down about 4-5dB at 60 degrees off axis, 7-8dB at 75 degrees.

Thanks @napilopez. Really interesting thread.
what do you think is the sound character of these speakers with shallow waveguide?
I read soundstage..in all the planes? Could you elaborate a bit? I am curious..

 

[Deleted member 14468]

Thanks, Interesting reading!
If I may ask, what do you think are the main advantages in having a cardioid dispersion? I would assume lower fundamental tones of male voices might be clearer or is there something more/different? I would have expected also lower excitation of some room standing waves, but the plots don’t seem to support my hypothesis..

I know you didn't ask me, but I'll throw my 2 cents in. I think a lot will depend on the room. If you have great symmetry in your setup and really well-damped first-sidewall reflections, maybe it won't be a big deal providing you're getting good absorption to the sides. But many people don't have that and when you have strong reflections, you not only have a delayed sound as a result of the reflections, you have a potential unknown coming back at you from each side -- those reflections might not be symmetrical. Right now, I'm dealing with a bit of that, which I'm going to build some room treatment to address.

So, in a nutshell, it'll depend on the room, but I think if you can eliminate energy to the sides, but still keep all those responses similar, you'll have benefit by reducing any potential reflection issues.

Doug Schneider
SoundStage!

 

[richard12511]

I did not find "their finish looks "cheap" and of low quality" when I had them in my living room. What I took exception to is the clunky shape, particularly as it was perched on a stand, and my wife and I object such configurations, including the more svelte Kii Three. Now, if D&D offered an acoustically and esthetically integrated subwoofer base as does Kii, we would find that quite acceptable.

I wish D&D would make a tower with higher max output.

 

[napilopez]

Thanks @napilopez. Really interesting thread.
what do you think is the sound character of these speakers with shallow waveguide?
I read soundstage..in all the planes? Could you elaborate a bit? I am curious..

I'm not sure I can characterize the soundstage of all of them in detail, but in general, with standard positioning (toed in normally or facing straight out) I find speakers with wider (horizontal) dispersion to have a 'bigger' sound. Sound sources seem larger to me. Orchestras feel more, umm, orchestral, rather than like a small diorarama of undersized musicians. As a consequence, sometimes the sound is more diffuse but not necessarily losing the solid imaging; while typically I feel narrower directivity speakers have more precise, pinpoint imaging, I often find I get a more tangible phantom center from wider directivity speakers.

As a caveat, keep in mind the vast majority of these impressions are from listening in my own apartment. Who knows, I might feel differently when I move somewhere else. There's also the not-negligible bias of practically expecting such speakers to sound bigger in the first place because of what I know/believe about psychoacoustics. Nonetheless, those are my impressions thus far.

That said, speakers with controlled (usually narrow) directivity like the 8C can sound much more expansive if you toe them in such that they crossfire a foot or two in front of you, as discussed in this thread. But aside from such positioning usually bothering me aesthetically, I find it can be tricky to get right, often sounding too fuzzy. It worked very nicely with the 8cs though.

 

[Mauro]

I'm not sure I can characterize the soundstage of all of them in detail, but in general, with standard positioning (toed in normally or facing straight out) I find speakers with wider (horizontal) dispersion to have a 'bigger' sound. Sound sources seem larger to me. Orchestras feel more, umm, orchestral, rather than like a small diorarama of undersized musicians. As a consequence, sometimes the sound is more diffuse but not necessarily losing the solid imaging; while typically I feel narrower directivity speakers have more precise, pinpoint imaging, I often find I get a more tangible phantom center from wider directivity speakers.

As a caveat, keep in mind the vast majority of these impressions are from listening in my own apartment. Who knows, I might feel differently when I move somewhere else. There's also the not-negligible bias of practically expecting such speakers to sound bigger in the first place because of what I know/believe about psychoacoustics. Nonetheless, those are my impressions thus far.

That said, speakers with controlled (usually narrow) directivity like the 8C can sound much more expansive if you toe them in such that they crossfire a foot or two in front of you, as discussed in this thread. But aside from such positioning usually bothering me aesthetically, I find it can be tricky to get right, often sounding too fuzzy. It worked very nicely with the 8cs though.

It urges buying a speaker or two to check it out myself
What are the benefits of the cardioid dispersion in your opinion from the perceived-sound point of view?

 

[GelbeMusik]

The D&D 8C is one of those blessed few speakers with multiple sources of measurements out there, but as far as I know, none in spinorama form.

Hi, nice info! I only wonder, if the 8C keeps its cardioid pattern placed against a backwall. My suggestion is, that at least parts of the cardioid is done with a particular twist in the crossover region of subs and mid. Theory says, that placing such arrangement against a wall alters the behavior when compared to measurements in quasi infinite distance to everything (includes mike).

The cardioid might undergo an effect that is well known from cardioid microphones, where frequency response strongly depends on bare distance. So far the theory.

 

[Juhazi]

^That's why they adjust delay and most likely spl of bass vs. mid+tweeter.

Check the interview at Stereophile https://www.stereophile.com/content/going-dutch-dutch-conversation-martijn-mensink

"But when you place the speakers in front of a wall, as the tweeter and the midrange driver are directional, acoustically speaking it's as if the wall really isn't there. However, as the woofers are on the back, the wall is sort of an acoustic mirror, so it's as if there's another pair of woofers behind the wall. In effect you now have four woofers, and that means that their combined acoustic point of origin shifts in the direction of the wall. We add a bit of extra delay to the tweeter and midrange driver to compensate for that, so that in combination with the wall, again you have a virtual point source.

Atkinson: And you have a reasonably wide range of distances you can compensate for, up to 1.5m/5'?

Mensink: Yes, with the app you can tell the speaker "Alright you're 40cm from the front wall, you're 1m from the sidewall," then the speaker will automatically load the corresponding DSP presets."

 

[GelbeMusik]

woops, even more nice! Problem seen, problem solved. I'm impressed! But .. then the gills ( do You say that, the fishs breathing? ) on the side are mostly for the looks? Again, georgious engineering, if ... I like it.

 

[Soniclife]

woops, even more nice! Problem seen, problem solved. I'm impressed! But .. then the gills ( do You say that, the fishs breathing? ) on the side are mostly for the looks? Again, georgious engineering, if ... I like it.

The side vents are how the midrange is cardioid, similar to open baffle. The back energy from the midrange is directed out of them so it cancels the direct sound.

 

[GelbeMusik]

The side vents are how the midrange is cardioid, similar to open baffle. The back energy from the midrange is directed out of them so it cancels the direct sound.

That's the case sometimes. But, with the overall design given here, I would rather suggest these openings to be kind of an 'aperiodic damping' for the middrivers basic resonance. Whatever, if it works, I'm o/k.

Reiterated, with tradional designs, people often refuse to understand, that a 'cardioid' doesn't work if placed closed to a backwall - despite the founding idea, that it shall not radiate backwards ;-) The laymans formulas are layed out to be used for the case of 'infinite distance' to a) some walls b) the mike, only.

Obviously D&D addressed the issue, and again, well done!

 

[Soniclife]

That's the case sometimes. But, with the overall design given here, I would rather suggest these openings to be kind of an 'aperiodic damping' for the middrivers basic resonance. Whatever, if it works, I'm o/k.

Reiterated, with tradional designs, people often refuse to understand, that a 'cardioid' doesn't work if placed closed to a backwall - despite the founding idea, that it shall not radiate backwards ;-) The laymans formulas are layed out to be used for the case of 'infinite distance' to a) some walls b) the mike, only.

Obviously D&D addressed the issue, and again, well done!

See https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...s-review-of-dutch-dutch’s-8c.7308/post-169529 for details of the vents.