Dual KEF kc62 vs. single larger sub?

[Fluxcapacitor15]

Hi all,

I’m considering adding subs to my system, a Lyngdorf TDAI-1120 driving Philharmonic BMR monitors. I’m in a large open living area, about 25’x35’ with 9’ ceilings, and I sit about 9 feet from front wall. I’m primarily interested in music, but this is the main living area so it’s where we watch tv and play video games as well.

Due to design constraints, I can’t really fit a large sub in my space. I have a 12” high space under my media shelf, so I’m debating between two options:

1. Dual KEF kc62

2. Single Sigberg audio inkognito 10” (maybe 12”) sub, connected via a wireless adapter.

The Sigberg measures extremely well and has garnered rave reviews, but I’d be limited to placing it near a wall next to my couch and using a wireless adapter, which I hear can lead to some lip sync issues due to the delay the amp has to account for.

The KEFs also get a lot of press, but mostly for how great they are for their size - I don’t hear them recommended for a large space or for room shaking bass (which I admittedly don’t need). Others have said the bass from these wouldn’t add much to the BMRs, which go pretty low already. However I’m reading more and more about how important 2 subs are to account for room modes.

Although I’d love two Sigbergs, I don’t want to spend quite that much now.

What do you think? Single, excellent sub? Or two micro subs? Appreciate any feedback!

 

[thewas]

In general I would always prefer multiple subs as this way someone can get a better modal consistency in the room.

 

[symphara]

I have an SVS 3000 Micro (it's similar to the KC62) and, while it is an excellent product in itself (the PEQ is really cool, and it works), it just doesn't go that deep as a sub with a much bigger driver would.

I'd personally get the 12".

 

[bodhi]

I don't think the KC62 will work in a room that size, not even two of them. Kef has the KF92 when you need small size with more oomph and two of those might be good for music but not sure about movies and stuff with explosions. And it's still too big.

I think you are setting yourself to fail if you don't budge on the size limitation.

 

[Purité Audio]

I have 2x KC62 ( with the LS60s) and I am ordering 2 of Thorbjørn’s for the Mantas, perhaps I can write to you with my thoughts?
The KC62s are extremely neat I sit three metres away and bass is formidable, but personal preference …
Keith

 

[Fluxcapacitor15]

I have 2x KC62 ( with the LS60s) and I am ordering 2 of Thorbjørn’s for the Mantas, perhaps I can write to you with my thoughts?
The KC62s are extremely neat I sit three metres away and bass is formidable, but personal preference …
Keith

That would be amazing, I’d love to hear your impressions. I do wish I could visit your shop, you have such incredible equipment!

 

[ryanosaur]

Hi all,

I’m considering adding subs to my system, a Lyngdorf TDAI-1120 driving Philharmonic BMR monitors. I’m in a large open living area, about 25’x35’ with 9’ ceilings, and I sit about 9 feet from front wall. I’m primarily interested in music, but this is the main living area so it’s where we watch tv and play video games as well.

Due to design constraints, I can’t really fit a large sub in my space. I have a 12” high space under my media shelf, so I’m debating between two options:

1. Dual KEF kc62

2. Single Sigberg audio inkognito 10” (maybe 12”) sub, connected via a wireless adapter.

The Sigberg measures extremely well and has garnered rave reviews, but I’d be limited to placing it near a wall next to my couch and using a wireless adapter, which I hear can lead to some lip sync issues due to the delay the amp has to account for.

The KEFs also get a lot of press, but mostly for how great they are for their size - I don’t hear them recommended for a large space or for room shaking bass (which I admittedly don’t need). Others have said the bass from these wouldn’t add much to the BMRs, which go pretty low already. However I’m reading more and more about how important 2 subs are to account for room modes.

Although I’d love two Sigbergs, I don’t want to spend quite that much now.

What do you think? Single, excellent sub? Or two micro subs? Appreciate any feedback!

Didn't we discuss this elsewhere?

No matter the press or marketing, I honestly don't think the KEFs will have the extension to create any worthwhile output much lower than the Mid 30s you get in the BMR Monitors. Keep in mind, much like the SVS Micro-Toy, these Lifestyle Devices are counting on Room Gain to give you a boost in output and extension, and in a room your size there will be no such benefit.
Also, when creating any Multi-Way sound system, you really need to have the roll-off of the Subwoofer be around 2 octaves below the Speaker you are matching them to. If you are using any Bass Management like Dirac or Audyssey (etc.) this will likely not be a problem as you can set the Crossover to around 80 Hz and be done in most instances. However, if you are running the Monitors full range you will likely see both "Sub" and Speaker rolling off in the same vicinity: in these cases, if the tune and slope do not match you get destructive interference between drivers. This is why multiple non-matching Subs are usually advised against, especially combining Sealed and Ported Subs.
To be fair, I am not well versed with Lyngdorf gear though I know Room Perfect by reputation. If your Receiver offers that room correction protocol and bass management, this latter point becomes moot...
However, the performance of the Micro Subs in a large open room is something I wouldn't trust without seeing some sort of groundplane measurement first. If the KEF and the SVS Subs perform anywhere near each other, the Micro Subs will be rolling off higher than your BMR Monitors and would not help your cause at all, other than meeting some bizarre requirement to fit an aesthetic goal. And I get it!... We almost all have some compromise in our setups, but you are hoping to break the rules of physics as they apply to Acoustics.
There is a reason why the BMR Towers are so much larger than the Monitors and the ability to hit 20Hz in-room is a big part of that. It requires a larger cabinet to reach that lower extension, as well as a larger driver to do so with any authority. Technology has come a long way, but it's not going to deliver what you are asking!

 

[HarmonicTHD]

Tested the KC62. Bought two 92s for the living room. KC where too weak and not able to keep up with the Reference 3. Confirmed by REW.

Best to buy two Sigbergs ;-) (modal problem minimized and oomph) or two 92s.

 

[Fluxcapacitor15]

Didn't we discuss this elsewhere?

No matter the press or marketing, I honestly don't think the KEFs will have the extension to create any worthwhile output much lower than the Mid 30s you get in the BMR Monitors. Keep in mind, much like the SVS Micro-Toy, these Lifestyle Devices are counting on Room Gain to give you a boost in output and extension, and in a room your size there will be no such benefit.
Also, when creating any Multi-Way sound system, you really need to have the roll-off of the Subwoofer be around 2 octaves below the Speaker you are matching them to. If you are using any Bass Management like Dirac or Audyssey (etc.) this will likely not be a problem as you can set the Crossover to around 80 Hz and be done in most instances. However, if you are running the Monitors full range you will likely see both "Sub" and Speaker rolling off in the same vicinity: in these cases, if the tune and slope do not match you get destructive interference between drivers. This is why multiple non-matching Subs are usually advised against, especially combining Sealed and Ported Subs.
To be fair, I am not well versed with Lyngdorf gear though I know Room Perfect by reputation. If your Receiver offers that room correction protocol and bass management, this latter point becomes moot...
However, the performance of the Micro Subs in a large open room is something I wouldn't trust without seeing some sort of groundplane measurement first. If the KEF and the SVS Subs perform anywhere near each other, the Micro Subs will be rolling off higher than your BMR Monitors and would not help your cause at all, other than meeting some bizarre requirement to fit an aesthetic goal. And I get it!... We almost all have some compromise in our setups, but you are hoping to break the rules of physics as they apply to Acoustics.
There is a reason why the BMR Towers are so much larger than the Monitors and the ability to hit 20Hz in-room is a big part of that. It requires a larger cabinet to reach that lower extension, as well as a larger driver to do so with any authority. Technology has come a long way, but it's not going to deliver what you are asking!

Yes we did! I’ve expanded the budget to two of these “toy subs” hoping for some personal experience outside of the Philharmonic Audio world, but your points remain completely valid and very helpful. Someone else suggested going with the single Sigberg sub now, and then getting a second one later if I feel the need, which is not a bad idea.

 

[ryanosaur]

Yes we did! I’ve expanded the budget to two of these “toy subs” hoping for some personal experience outside of the Philharmonic Audio world, but your points remain completely valid and very helpful. Someone else suggested going with the single Sigberg sub now, and then getting a second one later if I feel the need, which is not a bad idea.

In the Subwoofer Coaching I’ve been a part of, getting the single best Sub now and adding a second matching Sub later (if needed) is quite reasonable.
The biggest obstacles in your situation are the overall volume of your space and the aesthetic constraints being placed on the upgrade.
Adding a Sub for you isn’t about the rumble factor which I understand and appreciate, but it does seem to be about getting that last octave below the Monitors’ capabilities.
I think the Sigbergs may do that better for you, though I am still not a fan of Sealed Subs in such a large room (again, the physics of Acoustics). Regardless, you have a better chance with something like the Sigbergs than any of these Micro-Subs.

Frankly, getting Harbottle or Funk to do something for you in the 15” size would be better for your space… and maybe Nathan’s cabinet work could put them within your aesthetic limitations, but that’s just me trying to get the absolute best Sub for you that might be small and sexy enough to overcome the limitations you have.

Happy hunting!

 

[Ciobi69]

Double 15inch diy and you are done for life

 

[exm]

The kc62 are great for smaller rooms. They simply can’t outperform their physical limitations.

If you can only place one, maybe a single sub with 2 drivers?

 

[MarkS]

Why are you not considering Lyngdorf subs?

Authorized Lyngdorf dealer Hi-Fi Heaven in Wisconsin has an open-box BW2 for $1K:

LYNGDORF BW-2 White High-Bandwidth 400-watt/10" Subwoofer AUTHORIZED-DEALER | eBay

WE ARE ANAUTHORIZED LYNGDORF DEALER! If you have a Lyngdorf Audio amplifier, you can bypass the internal filters. Now the frequency range goes up to 800 Hz, and you can use the BW-2 as a boundary woofer to lift the performance of your system to a new level.

www.ebay.com

Also, I have one of those SVS "micro toys" in my 15' x 25' room, crossed at 60Hz (LR4 slopes on each side) via the TDAI-1120 to Goldenear Triton 7s, and it provides all the low bass (for music only, mostly classical) that I could ever want or need.

Of course my room is less than half the size of yours, but this experience has led me to discount the claims of the "you need at least thirty-two 24-inch subs" crowd.

 

[FrantzM]

Hi

Dissenting view. Bass is the province of powerful , low frequency transducers. The KC62 are cute but for what they do they are , IMHO, too expensive. at $1500.00 each
In such a big room two KC62 (not my favorite subwoofer BTW) ot SVS micro 3000 or whatever of these smallish "lifestyle" subwoofer is close to a joke... Seriously .
True, if well integrated a pair of, anything that could go around 50 Hz, may help in the modes distribution, thus resulting in cleaner, better, smoother response in the bass.

Truth needs to be told , for such a large room, do yourself a favor, Please: Get a pair of "serious" subwoofers, at least, a pair. @sweetchaos subwoofer Comparison tool (click here) is the tool to use. I would suggest for less money a pair of SVS SB3000 for about $2100.oo. Or anything similar available in your region.

Peace.

 

[Slayer]

If you want to save a few bucks and still get the job done with no complaints. Just get a pair of RSL 10'' speedwoofers. They go for $449 each, But you can find them on sale quite often for $399 and even $349. You'll save a lot of money and be just as happy if not more, than going with the expensive choices you listed in your op.

While I don't currently own a pair. I know of two people who do. Surprisingly, I must admit I was impressed. They truly are a great value.

 

[sweetchaos]

Get a certain sized subwoofer that fits your space, by looking at top performers in my 'subwoofer comparison' spreadsheet.

First, narrow down by budget, then sort by 'footprint' or 'volume' column, then you'll see ported subs being the most capable, but you can also narrow down by 'sealed' subs if you wish.

 

[HeadDoc12]

I can't speak for the Sigberg specifically, but I have two KC62s mated to the KEF LS50W2 system, and - while it works for my purposes and space - I would not recommend them for a room your size. One bigger/better sub would probably outperform them, and adding a second one down the line will avoid buyer's remorse.

 

[phoenixdogfan]

I have two SB 2000 with my LS 50 Metas and I would recommend you get the bigger sub. At a later date you can add a second sub. I just think the KC 62s will always be volume constrained especially with the large listening space.

 

[bodhi]

Of course my room is less than half the size of yours, but this experience has led me to discount the claims of the "you need at least thirty-two 24-inch subs" crowd.

This talk is mostly from subwoofer fanatics that seem to think that majority of people have huge listening rooms and are perfectly happy dropping a couple of butt-ugly black boxes size of a fridge in their living rooms.

In reality, these "lifestyle" (not butt-ugly) subwoofer tick all the boxes for majority of people in Europe at least.

Where these KEF subs fail in this case is output. The KF92 can output 95@20Hz anechoic which is nice, but now let's put 4 meters between sub and listener without room reinforcement and it's laughable. Now, put couple of those in 30m² room and you are in business.

 

[Ciobi69]

This talk is mostly from subwoofer fanatics that seem to think that majority of people have huge listening rooms and are perfectly happy dropping a couple of butt-ugly black boxes size of a fridge in their living rooms.

In reality, these "lifestyle" (not butt-ugly) subwoofer tick all the boxes for majority of people in Europe at least.

Where these KEF subs fail in this case is output. The KF92 can output 95@20Hz anechoic which is nice, but now let's put 4 meters between sub and listener without room reinforcement and it's laughable. Now, put couple of those in 30m² room and you are in business.

that is true, 95db from 4 meters become 83, for the case of bass frequencys for me isnt enough, i always raccomend atleast 12-15 inch subwoofers, for my case i am building 2 18 inch subwoofers that are truly definitive, my room is 763x500x230, its not that small