Help choosing speakers & amp

[jinza]

Hey everyone! I'm new to this forum but have already read some great advice so far - seems like a really great community.

I’m on a search for a decent sound system to install with my TV in my living room (& adjoining dining/kitchen) and I’d appreciate any help. I’ve been living with a Yamaha YAS-207 sound bar w/sub but it’s no longer inspiring, and I’m ready for an upgrade – more presence, more dynamics, clearer stereo image & better sound when listening from all parts of the living room/kitchen. Before the sound bar, I had a pair of Tannoy Reveal 802 which I found nice and clear, perhaps a bit boomy for the space. I don’t need surround sound, just TV connectivity (HDMI ARC), Spotify WIFI streaming and the possibility to add a sub, if needed.

Budget:
I’m looking for an entry to mid-level system which has will last me 10 years or more. My budget is €2,000 but I can stretch it to €3,000 if there’s a good reason. Value for money is important & I’m willing to buy second-hand or refurbished, so I’m open to slightly older models. I’m living in the Netherlands, for reference.

Uses (in order of preference):

• Streaming music via Spotify at low to medium volume, walking around the living room/kitchen.
• Watching TV/films or streaming music via Spotify at low to medium volume from the couch.
• Actively/critically listening to music in a seated position.
• In the future, potentially connecting a DJ controller to mix DJ sets.

The Room:
(L x W x H)
Living room 5.1 x 4 x 2.5 m (20.6 m2 / 51 m3)
Adjoining dining/kitchen 2.9 x 4.2 x 2.5 m (12.3 m2 / 30.4 m3)
Total (both rooms combined) 32.9 m2 / 81.4 m3

See the photos below of the room and the floor plan (TV & speakers marked in green). Due to the room layout and having a toddler, I’m restricted to placing the speakers (with grills) either side of the TV & close to the wall behind. I know placing the speakers further forward or moving the couch closer to the speakers would sound better, but unfortunately that’s not an option. As we need more storage space, I’m thinking of buying a wider TV cabinet then placing bookshelf speakers on the TV cabinet (with tweeters at ear height), wide enough apart to give some stereo spread for the ~4m distance to the couch seating position. Acoustics-wise, it’s a somewhat large space with plenty of reflective surfaces, so I’ll see what extra dampening I can add. I’d like to buy an amp with Dirac Live for easy room correction, or at least run REW with a Rode ribbon mic to tune the speakers to the room, so an amp with either Dirac Live or decent EQ control is a must.

Amps that caught my eye so far:
Marantz M1 – Now supports Dirac Live with a licence. Demo model with 2-year warranty for €750
Denon Home Amp – Also now supports Dirac Live with a licence. Seems to be identical to the Marantz M1, only cheaper? New for €639.
Wiim Amp Pro – Seems like great value but won’t sound as good? Enough power?

Speakers that caught my eye so far:
KEF speakers seem to balance cost with quality and aesthetics.
KEF Q Concerto Meta – Seems like a decent speaker for my budget. If not enough bass, I can add a sub? New for €599.
KEF R3 Meta – Great sound but expensive. New for €1,149
KEF LS50 Meta – Enough bass? Imaging too clinical / lacking warmth? Demo model for €499

If you have any advice or think a different speaker, amp, sub or room treatment would suit, I’d love to hear it. I'm certainly also open to second-hand models which are no longer available new. I’ll be sure to listen to any speakers for myself before purchasing, but it would be great to know where to aim first.

 

[DVDdoug]

Speakers are the main thing. I always recommend going to an audio/video store to listen to a variety of speakers. It can be very educational even if you don't buy what they are offering.

After that, DIRAC or other room correction can make an improvement (mostly in the bass range).

A subwoofer can help a lot with "small" speakers. And without one you can't get the "point one" LFE channel with movies, but you don't need one for stereo if you have "full range: speakers.

If you go to a store I would recommend listening to surround sound. It was one of the best "upgrades" I've ever made. (I "only" have 5.1 and I don't really have a desire for more channels.) I have a shelf-full of concert DVDs (and a couple of Blu-Rays) with surround but I also like to use a "hall" or "theater" setting on my AVR when listening to regular stereo for the "feel" of a larger room. ...That's "hi-fi heresy" since I'm not listing accurately as-intended but I like it! Of course it also adds to the movie watching experience.

 

[VMAT4]

The WiiM Amp Pro should have plenty of power for your needs. This will be especially true if you choose efficient speakers.
You may want to give the ELAC Debut Reference DBR 62 and the Debut 3.0 DF63 a listen if you can find a dealer. The WiiM Amp Pro
sells for about 460 €, giving you about 1500 € for speakers, which would give money for floor-standing speakers. BTW, you could just about afford the KEF Q7 Meta if you went with the WiiM Amp Pro. Keep in mind that WiiM products offer their own version of room correction.

 

[xanalog]

Welcome to ASR, @jinza ,

If you have any advice or think a different speaker, amp, sub or room treatment would suit, I’d love to hear it.

Have you browsed thru @amirm's review of aSciLab F6B Bookshelf Speaker?
Have you browsed thru @amirm's review of 3e audio A7 Amplifier?
Did you view the poll-results for each?

And those two performers are just in the past few weeks.
I'll take my 10% cut of your savings, if they are over 50% of what you had planned on spending.

 

[kemmler3D]

I can stretch it to €3,000 if there’s a good reason. Value for money is important & I’m willing to buy second-hand or refurbished, so I’m open to slightly older models. I’m living in the Netherlands, for reference.

Looks like you are already interested in KEF, so I would say to poke around and see if you can find a secondhand pair of LS60s within your budget. Job done in one go and they are really fantastic, if you can find them for $3K it's a no-brainer.

Difficulty: No grilles, very vulnerable to toddlers. But if you can place them away from climb-able surfaces, they should be old enough to know better by the time they are big enough to reach the tweeter...

 

[xanalog]

@jinza,
Please refer to the /\ @kemmler3D /\ reply at post #5 in another related topic.

 

[jinza]

The WiiM Amp Pro should have plenty of power for your needs. This will be especially true if you choose efficient speakers.
You may want to give the ELAC Debut Reference DBR 62 and the Debut 3.0 DF63 a listen if you can find a dealer. The WiiM Amp Pro
sells for about 460 €, giving you about 1500 € for speakers, which would give money for floor-standing speakers. BTW, you could just about afford the KEF Q7 Meta if you went with the WiiM Amp Pro. Keep in mind that WiiM products offer their own version of room correction.

Hey, this is great information thanks.

By efficient, do you mean with lower impedance, e.g. <4 ohms? I noticed the ELAC DBR62 and DF63 are rated at 6 ohms which is why I was wondering. Guessing they will be efficient enough, based on your recommendation and usage of the word "especially".

I really like the look of the DBR62 and think it would suit the space, aesthetically. Do you think it would have enough bass for the size of the room or would you recommend a sub to pair with it? I guess I could see how they sound first, and if there's not enough low end, find a sub...

 

[jinza]

Speakers are the main thing. I always recommend going to an audio/video store to listen to a variety of speakers. It can be very educational even if you don't buy what they are offering.

After that, DIRAC or other room correction can make an improvement (mostly in the bass range).

A subwoofer can help a lot with "small" speakers. And without one you can't get the "point one" LFE channel with movies, but you don't need one for stereo if you have "full range: speakers.

If you go to a store I would recommend listening to surround sound. It was one of the best "upgrades" I've ever made. (I "only" have 5.1 and I don't really have a desire for more channels.) I have a shelf-full of concert DVDs (and a couple of Blu-Rays) with surround but I also like to use a "hall" or "theater" setting on my AVR when listening to regular stereo for the "feel" of a larger room. ...That's "hi-fi heresy" since I'm not listing accurately as-intended but I like it! Of course it also adds to the movie watching experience.

Thanks for your input!

I'm glad you brought up surround sound, because I've has some second thoughts about it...
After some further research & brainstorming, I'm wondering if a center channel would be a good idea for watching films/TV. The reason being that often we struggle to hear the dialogue and need to turn it up (then turn it down during loud scenes), however, I'm not sure how much this is due to the Yamaha soundbar/sub or the mixing of the show's/film's sound.

My wife is not a native English speaker, so already struggles with some accents and sometimes needs subtitles (which I find very visually distracting). However, 99% of the time it's only the two of us watching from the couch which is fairly on-axis, so I wonder if the clarity of quality speakers will be enough of an upgrade from the soundbar to ditch the idea of 5.1.

Do you think the 4m distance between the speakers and the couch seating position would create too much of a central stereo image, negating the need for a center speaker? I could try to place the L & R speakers as far apart as possible to create more stereo spread, however, I'm limited by the left wall and the dining table/chairs. If I'd have to guess, I'd say the max distance between L & R speakers would be 2.5 to 3m.

 

[jinza]

Welcome to ASR, @jinza ,

Have you browsed thru @amirm's review of aSciLab F6B Bookshelf Speaker?
Have you browsed thru @amirm's review of 3e audio A7 Amplifier?
Did you view the poll-results for each?

And those two performers are just in the past few weeks.
I'll take my 10% cut of your savings, if they are over 50% of what you had planned on spending.

Hey! Thanks for the friendly welcome & for sharing those links - I hadn't seen those speakers or amp before. They both look great but alas, the SciLab F6B aren't available here in the Netherlands and the amp doesn't have a sub out. Keep them coming though

 

[jinza]

Looks like you are already interested in KEF, so I would say to poke around and see if you can find a secondhand pair of LS60s within your budget. Job done in one go and they are really fantastic, if you can find them for $3K it's a no-brainer.

Difficulty: No grilles, very vulnerable to toddlers. But if you can place them away from climb-able surfaces, they should be old enough to know better by the time they are big enough to reach the tweeter...

Hey & thanks for your input.

Damnnn those LS60s are beasts - talk about a one and done package! They're also slim & would squeeze nicely into the the room. My child is already tall enough to reach the tweeters and she listens pretty well...but she hasn't reached the "terrible twos" just yet, so it's a risk.

One concern I have with the LS60 is that the left speaker will need to be fairly close to the left wall (and also the back wall) so I imagine room correction will be required, however, options seem limited as it has an inbuilt DSP.

I found a pretty comprehensive thread on this - in short, the LS60 is missing any "real" room correction options. The best option I've found is in this post, a suggestion to connect a Wiim Amp to the LS60 & use Wiim's inbuilt room correction. However, I'm not sure if all the connectivity features such as auto on via HDMI eARC could pass through to the LS60.
https://audiosciencereview.com/foru...f-ls60-and-room-correction.52539/post-2114067

 

[VMAT4]

Look to the sensitivity of the speaker for an idea of efficiency. That is usually given in dB per 1 watt at 1 meter. If you like the look of the DBR 62, check out the DFR 52. As far as bass goes, I like to go with floor standers first. Then if you need more, add a sub. But, sub woofer integration done right is tricky.

 

[kemmler3D]

Hey & thanks for your input.

Damnnn those LS60s are beasts - talk about a one and done package! They're also slim & would squeeze nicely into the the room. My child is already tall enough to reach the tweeters and she listens pretty well...but she hasn't reached the "terrible twos" just yet, so it's a risk.

One concern I have with the LS60 is that the left speaker will need to be fairly close to the left wall (and also the back wall) so I imagine room correction will be required, however, options seem limited as it has an inbuilt DSP.

I found a pretty comprehensive thread on this - in short, the LS60 is missing any "real" room correction options. The best option I've found is in this post, a suggestion to connect a Wiim Amp to the LS60 & use Wiim's inbuilt room correction. However, I'm not sure if all the connectivity features such as auto on via HDMI eARC could pass through to the LS60.
https://audiosciencereview.com/foru...f-ls60-and-room-correction.52539/post-2114067

All speakers need room correction for bass (well, all rooms need correction) and I do use a WiiM pro for that. But the LS60 does have some built in EQ settings to adjust for being close to the wall, etc.

Auto on doesn't pass through but actually I never used that anyway.

Well, and it might be worth mentioning that very few speakers have room correction built into the speaker anyway...

If you are a KEF fan I think you would like them, but it's good to consider all the angles.

 

[digitalfrost]

Hey! Thanks for the friendly welcome & for sharing those links - I hadn't seen those speakers or amp before. They both look great but alas, the SciLab F6B aren't available here in the Netherlands and the amp doesn't have a sub out. Keep them coming though

AsciLab will ship worldwide. The C6B are an excellent choice and will leave enough in your budget to buy an amp. https://ascilab.com/product/ascilab-c6b-passive-pair/17/category/42/display/1/#none

I don't want to discourage you from KEF, I like their speakers. But I think AsciLab will be a step up. Since you are in europe, also check out Focal. You can get great deals by asking for the confidential price: https://de.homecinesolutions.fr/p/25990-focal-aria-evo-x-n-1-schwarz-lackiert

Generally speaking the KEFs will have a more focused sound because they're rather narrower in their directivity. I used to prefer this in the past but have since moved to wide directivity speakers.

Both KEF and Focal can be upgraded to a full 5.1 set later if necessary.

 

[thewas]

I don't want to discourage you from KEF, I like their speakers. But I think AsciLab will be a step up. Since you are in europe, also check out Focal. You can get great deals by asking for the confidential price: https://de.homecinesolutions.fr/p/25990-focal-aria-evo-x-n-1-schwarz-lackiert

Generally speaking the KEFs will have a more focused sound because they're rather narrower in their directivity. I used to prefer this in the past but have since moved to wide directivity speakers.

Ascilab speakers are also though of similar high directivity like the KEF ones, in the mids actually even more, exemplary:

 

[jinza]

AsciLab will ship worldwide. The C6B are an excellent choice and will leave enough in your budget to buy an amp. https://ascilab.com/product/ascilab-c6b-passive-pair/17/category/42/display/1/#none

I don't want to discourage you from KEF, I like their speakers. But I think AsciLab will be a step up. Since you are in europe, also check out Focal. You can get great deals by asking for the confidential price: https://de.homecinesolutions.fr/p/25990-focal-aria-evo-x-n-1-schwarz-lackiert

Generally speaking the KEFs will have a more focused sound because they're rather narrower in their directivity. I used to prefer this in the past but have since moved to wide directivity speakers.

Both KEF and Focal can be upgraded to a full 5.1 set later if necessary.

The C6B looks like great value and has a lot of audiophiles very excited. Alas, even though the shipping is free, I’d need to pay 21% import tax and customs duties which pushes the price to around €1,270, higher than the KEF Q Concerto (which I’d also be able to test listen at a store nearby).

I’ll check out Focal & thanks for the tip on asking for the confidential price. What is that, by the way? And is it something only focal or other stores might be flexible with?

I’m glad you brought up the narrow focus because I want speakers that will also sound ok from the kitchen or dining table (as much as that’s possible, anyway). So I suppose I should consider models/brands with wider directivity - any recommendations? I’ll take a look at Erin’s audio graphs - is it reflections, contour or another metric I should compare?

 

[lawnchair04]

The C6B looks like great value and has a lot of audiophiles very excited. Alas, even though the shipping is free, I’d need to pay 21% import tax and customs duties which pushes the price to around €1,270, higher than the KEF Q Concerto (which I’d also be able to test listen at a store nearby).

I’ll check out Focal & thanks for the tip on asking for the confidential price. What is that, by the way? And is it something only focal or other stores might be flexible with?

I’m glad you brought up the narrow focus because I want speakers that will also sound ok from the kitchen or dining table (as much as that’s possible, anyway). So I suppose I should consider models/brands with wider directivity - any recommendations? I’ll take a look at Erin’s audio graphs - is it reflections, contour or another metric I should compare?

If you check out Erin’s Audio Corner YouTube channel he has some videos that explain reading the graphs and other more general-purpose discussion videos that explain that kind of thing really well. He often even explains stuff in his review videos.

This review by Amir also introduces some of the main graphs used to represent speaker measurements and gets into how to understand directivity. I found it really useful in starting to understand this stuff.

 

[digitalfrost]

The C6B looks like great value and has a lot of audiophiles very excited. Alas, even though the shipping is free, I’d need to pay 21% import tax and customs duties which pushes the price to around €1,270, higher than the KEF Q Concerto (which I’d also be able to test listen at a store nearby).

I recently build Audio First Fidelia. I'm really happy with them, but yeah I also had to pay 21% customs. Fun fact: In EU you pay the VAT of the country your product arrives in. Since the speakers first landed in EU in Rotterdam I had to pay 21% VAT, even tho germany only has 19%...

I’ll check out Focal & thanks for the tip on asking for the confidential price. What is that, by the way? And is it something only focal or other stores might be flexible with?

I think the manufacturers have a lowest public price that the dealers must not go below. But privately, they can give you a better price. Years ago we auditioned KEF R5 vs Focal Aria at a local shop. In the end my friend bought the KEFs, but it was a close call. The Focals definitely filled the room more with sound. For both speakers the quoted price was below the cheapest I could find on the internet.

I’m glad you brought up the narrow focus because I want speakers that will also sound ok from the kitchen or dining table (as much as that’s possible, anyway). So I suppose I should consider models/brands with wider directivity - any recommendations? I’ll take a look at Erin’s audio graphs - is it reflections, contour or another metric I should compare?

The horizontal contour plot is probaby most informative. https://www.spinorama.org/compare.h...nsAudioCorner&version1=eac-v1-ported-0-degree

You can see the Arias are not as nice and consistent compared to the KEFs, but they are wider. Sad that even their new model does not include a waveguide. When looking at the CEA2034 graph, you can see the R3 Meta has a higher DI (narrower directivity) in the high frequency:

In general the R3 is the technically superior speaker without a doubt.

Ascilab speakers are also though of similar high directivity like the KEF ones, in the mids actually even more, exemplary:

Very interesting. I have the Fidelia which uses the same chassis as the F6B (ok F6B has 1" larger woofer) so I thought they would be similar. But they are not:

Easily compare loudspeakers measurements

www.spinorama.org

 

[heflys20]

Passive setups like the C6B are so good now, it’s hard to justify the extra hassle of active speakers unless you really need the precision.

What hassle? You just plug in most powered speakers/ active speakers in be done with it (monitors may require a bit more). They come with built in amplification. You need to find an independent amp for a passive speaker. Speaker wire, etc. Not to mention most actives come with built in DSP which allows for tonal adjustment.