Subwoofer suggestion paired with LS50 meta; details in post.

[actioncat]

Bottom line up front: help me add a sub. I would like suggestions on a subwoofer that pairs well with my speakers, fits into the room size and space constraints.

Current setup: wiim amp pro and LS50 meta on s2 stands.

listening distance: 8-9’
Room size: 15.5’ length, 11.5’ width in the main area; with an additional 6’ of open concept kitchen, ceiling height 8.5’. We watch TV, movies and listen to music from the speakers at low to moderate volumes. 80-85 decibels according to the NIOSH app is pretty loud and peak listening for us. Average is probably 65-75 decibels.

Sub size constraints: 15” deep max. At this depth it will touch a wall at the back of the sub. The sub will sit in a corner.

I’ve looked at the kef kube 8”, svs micro 3000, kc62 and others. I’d like the price of the kube but willing to spend when the value is there. I will start with one sub, I’m not sure I have room for two. I’m in the US.

What other subs am I missing? What sub is recommended and why over others?

In general I value well built items, matching brand is nice but not required along with nice and modern features.

I’m new to all this, ASR has helped me get to this point! Now I’m here and engaged! Thanks for reading

 

[Keith_W]

Welcome to ASR. A similar thread was posted yesterday by someone else. You can read my response there.

 

[KenMasters]

You know, an Arendal 1S sub, if rotated so the cone faces forward, is not much deeper than the subs you mentioned and in the same price range ( SVS Micro=1961 / KC62=1723). Also, unlike the subs you mentioned, frequency response is flat to 300Hz, so good for the higher crossover your LS50s are likely to require.

Big subs, make no mistake, but depth wise it's in the ballpark and it will add significant impact to your LS50s - just a thought.

 

[drodgers]

I've got an SVS 3000 Micro paired with LS50 Metas and they go great with proper integration (minidsp). If you want to stay small, I'd wait for the SVS micro to go on sale (they often do ~40% off) and snap one or two up for a bargain.

That said, the downside of a small sub is that you won't get much volume in the very low frequencies <30Hz no matter what you do. If you want that ultra low rumble, there's no substitute for a huge driver (13"+ inches, more is usually better). I've got a single SVS SB3000 (not micro) in my main setup and it's got loads of SPL to spare all the way down low in my small-moderately sized room, even after eq-ing down all the peaks for a perfectly flat response.

 

[actioncat]

Welcome to ASR. A similar thread was posted yesterday by someone else. You can read my response there.

Happy to be here. I’m hearing find a spot for two subs. This would absolutely mean a micro sized sub. The beautiful Arendal 1S subs Ken mentioned would be out.

You know, an Arendal 1S sub, if rotated so the cone faces forward, is not much deeper than the subs you mentioned and in the same price range ( SVS Micro=1961 / KC62=1723). Also, unlike the subs you mentioned, frequency response is flat to 300Hz, so good for the higher crossover your LS50s are likely to require.

Big subs, make no mistake, but depth wise it's in the ballpark and it will add significant impact to your LS50s - just a thought.

I like this thought, thank you. Could the cone be rotated to the rear or would this destroy the sound coming out? Rotating the cone to the rear would put the connections on the left close to the media center.

With the small ls50, in general is it possible to have a sub that is too large and maybe overpowering or can any large sub be tuned down to match a smaller speaker? General question but also in the case of the Arendal?

I've got an SVS 3000 Micro paired with LS50 Metas and they go great with proper integration (minidsp). If you want to stay small, I'd wait for the SVS micro to go on sale (they often do ~40% off) and snap one or two up for a bargain.

That said, the downside of a small sub is that you won't get much volume in the very low frequencies <30Hz no matter what you do. If you want that ultra low rumble, there's no substitute for a huge driver (13"+ inches, more is usually better). I've got a single SVS SB3000 (not micro) in my main setup and it's got loads of SPL to spare all the way down low in my small-moderately sized room, even after eq-ing down all the peaks for a perfectly flat response.

Is dsp required to get the proper integration? I was under the impression that the SVS app controls were a form of dsp and with the wiim amp controls, I wouldn’t need additional dsp/minidsp. What am I missing?

When looking at measurement data for subs, can I correlate the db level to a Hz level to the volumes I listen at? As an example if I listen at 80 db, can I look a sub measurement chart for 80 db and see that it goes down to 30 hz as a way to apply measurement data for my personal use?

 

[KenMasters]

I like this thought, thank you. Could the cone be rotated to the rear or would this destroy the sound coming out?

Right up against the wall? I'm not so sure that would be a good idea. With a little distance it could work, but if you want a higher crossover you could be sacrificing output at the higher end - at least in my setup I found from 100Hz up there was a drop-off in output when side firing vs forward facing.

With the small ls50, in general is it possible to have a sub that is too large and maybe overpowering or can any large sub be tuned down to match a smaller speaker? General question but also in the case of the Arendal?

My experience only stretches so far, but I haven't come across a case yet where a sub has been too large. I currently have 2x 1S 1723s paired with my LS50 Metas with a crossover of 200Hz (not much output from my LS50s in my room below 150Hz).

Is dsp required to get the proper integration?

Integration and to tame in-room bass response.

I was under the impression that the SVS app controls were a form of dsp and with the wiim amp controls, I wouldn’t need additional dsp/minidsp. What am I missing?

I'm not familiar with the Wiim amp controls, but you can use either or if they offer the same capabilities - or a combination is one offers features the other doesn't. Whatever combination provides the results you're looking for.

When looking at measurement data for subs, can I correlate the db level to a Hz level to the volumes I listen at? As an example if I listen at 80 db, can I look a sub measurement chart for 80 db and see that it goes down to 30 hz as a way to apply measurement data for my personal use?

It is very room dependent, you'd need to measure the sub's response in your room to get a handle on relative volumes, equalisation needs and sub/speaker crossover.

 

[drmevo]

I have the same speakers and very similar space/requirements. I just bought an SVS SB-3000 from Amazon as there is an authorized seller that lists them there on and off for $899 new. By on and off, I mean I checked in the morning yesterday and all “new” options were full price, then this seller popped up with five listed as “New” some time in the middle of the day. Later on, they were back to full price or “Used - like new” at the same price I paid.

It’s possible it was a listing error but I think more likely it’s a MAP thing, where the seller can’t consistently list them as new or they’ll get in trouble with SVS.

 

[Keith_W]

Is dsp required to get the proper integration? I was under the impression that the SVS app controls were a form of dsp and with the wiim amp controls, I wouldn’t need additional dsp/minidsp. What am I missing?

DSP is able to correct in the frequency domain and the time domain. Every speaker which produces bass will have peaks and dips in every room. These are the result of speakers interacting with each other resulting in phase cancellation, and speakers interacting with reflections - also resulting in phase cancellation. In other words, it is a time domain problem. Ideally, the solution should also be in the time domain - adjust the phase, adjust time alignment, etc. Whatever problems remain can be removed by EQ.

Something like your Wiim is only able to correct by EQ. I don't know how good the EQ in the Wiim is. It may not be able to accurately follow peaks in the frequency response so you will get a lumpy correction.

It all depends on what your goals are and how obsessive you want to be. And how much time you want to spend reading about this stuff.

 

[actioncat]

This is awesome and super helpful to fill in the gaps of my understanding.

How obsessive and how much time? I’d like to get to a level of a solid understanding; different levels to that statement as there is always more to learn.

Take aways that got me to this point
- Spend money on speakers that measure well and produce the SPL that fit a space and listening preferences.
- Get an amp that measures well, and has the features needed. Class D is the future.
- Room treatment makes a big difference. This is an area or level of obsession I’m not getting into at this time. One thing at a time.
- Room correction also known as DSP? Makes a big difference and paired with speakers are the things where the biggest gains in sound can be had. This is where I’m at with obsession level and wanting to get good results. My understanding is expanded that dsp goes beyond EQ; great info!
- Oh yeah, don’t spend money on expensive speaker wire lol.

I believe this is a good general summary for an average listener with one set up for multi use tv, movies, music that has moved beyond a sound bar. I’m here to learn so if these are wrong let me know.

Foe me after the sub is purchased spending ~$300 usd for dsp and a mic is money well spent to tune the in room experience. Research was done to find a set up that measures well without room interference, now I want to bring that into a practical application. The room correction got me to the wiim as a great feature but I’m not stuck on it.

Sounds like I’m getting a sub and DSP

 

[actioncat]

Right up against the wall? I'm not so sure that would be a good idea. With a little distance it could work, but if you want a higher crossover you could be sacrificing output at the higher end - at least in my setup I found from 100Hz up there was a drop-off in output when side firing vs forward facing.



My experience only stretches so far, but I haven't come across a case yet where a sub has been too large. I currently have 2x 1S 1723s paired with my LS50 Metas with a crossover of 200Hz (not much output from my LS50s in my room below 150Hz).



Integration and to tame in-room bass response.



I'm not familiar with the Wiim amp controls, but you can use either or if they offer the same capabilities - or a combination is one offers features the other doesn't. Whatever combination provides the results you're looking for.



It is very room dependent, you'd need to measure the sub's response in your room to get a handle on relative volumes, equalisation needs and sub/speaker crossover.

Ok! This is exciting. I’m at the point of dialing in my set up to my space. ASR and others got me a good foundation. Now I need to apply the education to my space. This is really cool

 

[KenMasters]

For me after the sub is purchased spending ~$300 usd for dsp and a mic is money well spent to tune the in room experience. Research was done to find a set up that measures well without room interference, now I want to bring that into a practical application. The room correction got me to the wiim as a great feature but I’m not stuck on it.

Sounds like I’m getting a sub and DSP

All you need to buy extra at this point (assuming you have a laptop) is a UMIK-1. The software, REW, is free (though donations are appreciated).

The subs you're looking at have the required functionality to get started. You can expand in future if you feel the need, but for now it's a great place to start without getting overwhelmed by options.

 

[actioncat]

All you need to buy extra at this point (assuming you have a laptop) is a UMIK-1. The software, REW, is free (though donations are appreciated).

The subs you're looking at have the required functionality to get started. You can expand in future if you feel the need, but for now it's a great place to start without getting overwhelmed by options.

Without jumping into the REW details. Are the basics that once in room measurements are taken. I work to get a flat response by adjusting EQ up where there are dips and down where there are peaks? Is there a recommended range hit or low that is acceptable? As in, if the response is flat within +/- 2 db no need to tune more?

Thank you, a good starting spot without an overwhelming number of options is where I’m at. I want to put some functional things in place in my space.

 

[actioncat]

DSP is able to correct in the frequency domain and the time domain. Every speaker which produces bass will have peaks and dips in every room. These are the result of speakers interacting with each other resulting in phase cancellation, and speakers interacting with reflections - also resulting in phase cancellation. In other words, it is a time domain problem. Ideally, the solution should also be in the time domain - adjust the phase, adjust time alignment, etc. Whatever problems remain can be removed by EQ.

Something like your Wiim is only able to correct by EQ. I don't know how good the EQ in the Wiim is. It may not be able to accurately follow peaks in the frequency response so you will get a lumpy correction.

It all depends on what your goals are and how obsessive you want to be. And how much time you want to spend reading about this stuff.

Correction for pass can be done at the sub and the wiim also has an option for this. Time also known as delay? If so this can also be adjusted. That leaves me with a good mic and software as Ken suggested to get dialed in?

 

[KenMasters]

Without jumping into the REW details. Are the basics that once in room measurements are taken. I work to get a flat response by adjusting EQ up where there are dips and down where there are peaks? Is there a recommended range hit or low that is acceptable? As in, if the response is flat within +/- 2 db no need to tune more?

Starting out, conventional wisdom is to cut only - boosting is not a bad thing necessarily, but it requires a bit more understanding to know when it's appropriate.

Probably the best way to go about it is to measure the full range response of your speakers separately at the listening position, then the response of your sub and post those files on the forum so people can offer advice on how to proceed.

I wouldn't want to say too much now as it can sound quite overwhelming, but it's actually not that complicated once you sit down with it.

Getting started, for EQ purposes, a good idea would be to check out this thread on the Moving Mic Method

 

[actioncat]

Starting out, conventional wisdom is to cut only - boosting is not a bad thing necessarily, but it requires a bit more understanding to know when it's appropriate.

Probably the best way to go about it is to measure the full range response of your speakers separately at the listening position, then the response of your sub and post those files on the forum so people can offer advice on how to proceed.

I wouldn't want to say too much now as it can sound quite overwhelming, but it's actually not that complicated once you sit down with it.

Getting started, for EQ purposes, a good idea would be to check out this thread on the Moving Mic Method

Got it, thank you. I’ll be back with some measurements.

 

[KenMasters]

Time also known as delay? If so this can also be adjusted.

Another good ASR thread to look at: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...e-aligning-subwoofer-s-to-mains-how-to.15269/

 

[phoenixdogfan]

Hi Actiocat, welcome to ASR. I have LS 50 Metas and play them in a 12' x 12' x 8' room, so not too much different from yours. I am using two SVS SB 2000's. which is SVS's best selling sub, having a 12 in woofer. It's a cube roughly 14" on each side. It plays down to 25 hz at 100 db, and 20 hz at 95 db, so it's a real subwoofer, rather than a glorified woofer like the Kc62 and the SVS Micro. The other upside to it, is that it only costs around $600-700 each. So you can get two real subs for the price of a Kc 62. And none of the bigger subs (SB 3000, SB 2000) are too overpowering for the LS 50 Metas, but all of them will require DSP to fully tame them. Personally, I use Dirac. When you run Dirac, you will see that even after you've done your best to fine tune these subs, there will be enormous peaks and some troughs as well. That's the result of the standing waves generated by the interaction of your speaker and room. A good Dsp can entirely remove the peaks and may help somewhat with the nulls. That's what Dirac does. And the end result is that you have full range speakers, rather than mini-monitors that begin to roll off at 100 hz.

So I'd recommend at least thinking about full range subs. They are not that much bigger (and they are less expensive) than the SVS Micros and Kc 62s of the world, and they actually get the job done. In any case you will need some sort of DSP. You can either use REW if you want to roll your own, which is difficult and time consuming, or you can use something like Dirac which is actually fairly easy to learn how to use, and gets you optimized in a relatively rapid time frame.

 

[Keith_W]

How obsessive and how much time? I’d like to get to a level of a solid understanding; different levels to that statement as there is always more to learn.

LOL! "How obsessive and how much time?" You notice that there are some of us on ASR who have been here for 10 years and we are still learning? There are shortcuts, such as Dirac (as has already been suggested). Rely on an algorithm to work things out for you and spit out a DSP solution automatically. Or you could go nuts - learn acoustics, learn DSP, learn what is audible and what is not - and try to roll your own. The latter approach will land you in the same sad asylum many of us find ourselves in. We come here for therapy and to spread our illness.

There are books to read, concepts to struggle with. All wonderful if you love tinkering. But it is an endless rabbit hole. I have had a DSP system for 10 years, and I am still dreaming up schemes to improve it.

- Room treatment makes a big difference. This is an area or level of obsession I’m not getting into at this time. One thing at a time.
- Room correction also known as DSP? Makes a big difference and paired with speakers are the things where the biggest gains in sound can be had.

Room treatment and DSP are opposite ends of the spectrum. In general, high frequency problems are better addressed through purchase of a better speaker and with room treatment. DSP has a minor role. The situation is reversed for low frequencies - DSP comes into its own and is far more powerful and precise than attempting to control bass issues with room treatment.

 

[Keith_W]

Correction for pass can be done at the sub and the wiim also has an option for this. Time also known as delay? If so this can also be adjusted. That leaves me with a good mic and software as Ken suggested to get dialed in?

Sorry, I missed this question. When it comes to dialling in subs, you need to perform time alignment and phase alignment.

Time alignment = delay.

Phase alignment is more complex. Because the group delay is not constant for each individual driver and between speakers and subs (i.e. phase rotates with frequency at different rates) you may need more complex phase alignment shifts than simply delay. You may require all-pass filters to straighten out the phase between drivers to nudge them closer together.