Dolby atmos front height or reflection speakers?

[DutchJay]

Hi all,

I want to add .2 to my 5.1.

Cant mount speaker on or in ceiling.

So choice is front heights directly above the LCR just below the ceiling (ceiling are 2.6 meter, they will be about 30 cm below) or reflection speakers...mlp is 3.85 meters away from the front stage.

Anybody have experience with these set ups?

Thanks!!

Jeroen

 

[delta76]

I had the same question and every "experts" claim that upfiring speaker is a lie. so your first option (above LCR) is better, as long as you can secure them I assume you put them above the fronts, on a stand - speakers falling down is no joke

 

[DutchJay]

Thanks, I have a high shelve above them so can put the on there!

 

[kos999]

Hello, I have 4 large Atmos speakers about 3feet front and back of my seats. Can i play DTS:X ?

 

[DutchJay]

I had the same question and every "experts" claim that upfiring speaker is a lie. so your first option (above LCR) is better, as long as you can secure them I assume you put them above the fronts, on a stand - speakers falling down is no joke

Btw, did you follow up on that advice? Do you now have 2 front heights in your set up? How high above your fronts are they and what is your experience? Does it add a lot of "atmos"?

 

[delta76]

Btw, did you follow up on that advice? Do you now have 2 front heights in your set up? How high above your fronts are they and what is your experience? Does it add a lot of "atmos"?

not yet. i am waiting for x3800h to be available/affordable to add atmos to my system. but I think that (advice) makes sense, direct sound is definitely better than "Reflected" sound. and atmos is object based so as long as you make proper adjustments when calibrating, you are good

 

[Dj7675]

Hi all,

I want to add .2 to my 5.1.

Cant mount speaker on or in ceiling.

So choice is front heights directly above the LCR just below the ceiling (ceiling are 2.6 meter, they will be about 30 cm below) or reflection speakers...mlp is 3.85 meters away from the front stage.

Anybody have experience with these set ups?

Thanks!!

Jeroen

Dolby has guidelines for height/top speakers and are based on angles. I believe the lowest angle they recommend is 30 degrees elevation. But with just 2 speakers on the front you don’t get a lot of that intended overhead experience. If you do end up with just 2 speakers I believe the recommendation is directly overhead. If you have a flat ceiling made of typical hard surface material, the reflection speakers might work. In some setups they can work fine and I think in your case worth a try to get sound overhead.

 

[GalZohar]

No personal experience, but based on basic physics and reading experts' experiences in several other places, the up-firing (utilizing ceiling bounce) is extremely inferior to actual ceiling speakers.

As said, though, the standard for .2 is having the 2 speakers almost directly overhead (slightly in front). Having them above the front speakers won't have the same effect, although may be better than nothing and almost surely be better than up-firing speakers. I have a friend who tried that (2 atmos speakers directly above the main speakers, where the front speakers aren't extremely close, which made the atmos speakers well away from where they should be) and was disappointed with the result, compared to what others are getting with proper atmos speaker placement.

 

[DutchJay]

No personal experience, but based on basic physics and reading experts' experiences in several other places, the up-firing (utilizing ceiling bounce) is extremely inferior to actual ceiling speakers.

As said, though, the standard for .2 is having the 2 speakers almost directly overhead (slightly in front). Having them above the front speakers won't have the same effect, although may be better than nothing and almost surely be better than up-firing speakers. I have a friend who tried that (2 atmos speakers directly above the main speakers, where the front speakers aren't extremely close, which made the atmos speakers well away from where they should be) and was disappointed with the result, compared to what others are getting with proper atmos speaker placement.

Yeah this is what i hear a lot. Upfiring just not the way to go. I'll give the front hights a go with some borrowed speakers as I have a really high shelve above the TV, so putting some speakers up there is not to much work...

 

[Thomas_A]

I went from up-firing to front height and it is better. Not the same, but better.

 

[voodooless]

Not the same, but better.

In what way is it better?

 

[Thomas_A]

In what way is it better?

Well, the upfiring speakers did not deliver any significant effects IMO. The front height gave a bit better presentation of the event in front of you when upmixing good live recordings. More "depth" and a better opening to the stage.

 

[Fillius]

Hi all,

I want to add .2 to my 5.1.

Cant mount speaker on or in ceiling.

So choice is front heights directly above the LCR just below the ceiling (ceiling are 2.6 meter, they will be about 30 cm below) or reflection speakers...mlp is 3.85 meters away from the front stage.

Anybody have experience with these set ups?

Thanks!!

Jeroen

I have a similar layout and ended up going with front heights because I worked out that upfiring speakers would reflect too early. Your ceiling is 30cm higher than mine, but at 3.85m back then you might have the same issue.

Ceiling reflected speakers may work in an ideal setup (although I've never tried), but if the sound is bouncing back to ground level before it reaches you then I doubt it will have the overhead effect you want.

I'm quite happy with my front height speakers, they do add a little depth to the soundstage. But I do intend to add some proper in-ceiling overheads when funds allow.

 

[Sancus]

I can't mount stuff to the ceiling either so I simply put them on stands(see signature).

If I had to choose it would be rear height/top > front > upfiring > nothing. Of course both front and rear is the best.

 

[Tom C]

I can't mount stuff to the ceiling either so I simply put them on stands(see signature).

If I had to choose it would be rear height/top > front > upfiring > nothing. Of course both front and rear is the best.

What kind of stand let’s you place the speaker near the ceiling?

 

[voodooless]

if the sound is bouncing back to ground level before it reaches you then I doubt it will have the overhead effect you want.

How does that physically work?

There are obviously many parameters at play here:
- How well does your ceiling reflect? Usually you would like your room to not be reflective, including your ceiling.
- How diffuse is the reflection? I suspect for the effect to work well, you don’t want very diffuse sound. It will create just more bouncing.
- How much leakage do you have? How much of the upward sound reaches you directly vs bounced. Generally I would suspect that you’d need highly directional speakers for this job.

All of this makes it very hard to actually get the best out of this solution. So it’s mostly for the cases that you cannot mount things higher up, to still get some kind of an effect..

 

[Sancus]

What kind of stand let’s you place the speaker near the ceiling?

There are a variety of professional stands that go pretty high. I'm using K&M base plates and the distance rod that goes up to 2400mm or 94.5" - my ceilings are about 9'. What's important is that the angle relative to the listener be fairly steep. Otherwise it won't sound like things are coming from overhead. Since my setup allows me to put the stands under the end tables very close to the seats, this is achievable, but if you have to put the stands far away from the listening position it wouldn't work as well.

If you needed your stands further away, there are other things you could try, like a lighting/backdrop style setup with a crossbar. I didn't look too deep into that but it is possible, though it may require a DIY bracket and clamp for your speakers.

 

[Fillius]

How does that physically work?

There are obviously many parameters at play here:
- How well does your ceiling reflect? Usually you would like your room to not be reflective, including your ceiling.
- How diffuse is the reflection? I suspect for the effect to work well, you don’t want very diffuse sound. It will create just more bouncing.
- How much leakage do you have? How much of the upward sound reaches you directly vs bounced. Generally I would suspect that you’d need highly directional speakers for this job.

All of this makes it very hard to actually get the best out of this solution. So it’s mostly for the cases that you cannot mount things higher up, to still get some kind of an effect..

The options are fairly well explained here:

https://www.dolby.com/siteassets/technologies/dolby-atmos/atmos-installation-guidelines-121318_r3.1.pdf

It doesn't mention anything about distance from the listening position that I could see. But it does say to make sure the ceiling is a flat and accoustically reflective surface, and to avoid any other reflections other than the first direct one.

Atmos upfiring speakers will tend to be designed to be more diffuse but they typically have a physical barrier at the front to block direct sound to the listener.

It all depends on the angle, if you are using something like a KEF R8a then the angle is fixed, so if they are laying flat on top of your L/R speakers then the sound will hit the ceiling at a specific point and there will be a sweet spot where the first reflection comes back down. If the MLP is further back, it will miss this sweet spot, as demonstrated nicely here:

(Credit for the image goes to DrussTheLegend on AVF)

I wasn't sure if I am allowed to link directly to the other forum, but if you Google for "Atmos Upfiring Angles" then you should find the thread.

 

[Tom C]

There are a variety of professional stands that go pretty high. I'm using K&M base plates and the distance rod that goes up to 2400mm or 94.5" - my ceilings are about 9'. What's important is that the angle relative to the listener be fairly steep. Otherwise it won't sound like things are coming from overhead. Since my setup allows me to put the stands under the end tables very close to the seats, this is achievable, but if you have to put the stands far away from the listening position it wouldn't work as well.

If you needed your stands further away, there are other things you could try, like a lighting/backdrop style setup with a crossbar. I didn't look too deep into that but it is possible, though it may require a DIY bracket and clamp for your speakers.

Thanks so much!

 

[milotrain]

Dolby has guidelines for height/top speakers and are based on angles. I believe the lowest angle they recommend is 30 degrees elevation. But with just 2 speakers on the front you don’t get a lot of that intended overhead experience. If you do end up with just 2 speakers I believe the recommendation is directly overhead. If you have a flat ceiling made of typical hard surface material, the reflection speakers might work. In some setups they can work fine and I think in your case worth a try to get sound overhead.

The recommendation is minimum 30° + EF (elevation of the front speaker array, so if it is above center eye line you need to add it). The "home theatre" recommendation is two right above you but this is not ideal and not represented in the professional recommendations. Due to a number of factors, including how material is currently being mixed in Atmos, putting tops on the front wall at the very top edge, especially if your MLP is only ~4M away will work well for you.