Do we crave distortion?

[kemmler3D]

This is something I've pointed out before...

When the subject is whether anyone would *prefer* audible distortion added to their playback, for instance a tube amp with audible distortion, it's very common from the accuracy-first folks to say "Well, ok, one might like some distortion for some content, but if you add the same distortion then only some stuff may sound good, other tracks will sound worse."

Basically: The effect will be variable with recordings: some will sound good, others won't.

But that is precisely the situation someone is in with an accurate system!

Due to the variation in sound quality in recordings, an accurate system is going to expose bad and good recordings, so your experience of "good sound" will vary across recordings. Some will sound worse than others, some better.

So there is no "win" in that regard for the accurate system in terms of the argument above regarding a preference or not for some distortion.

As it happens, like I stated before, I tend to like the tube distortion across pretty much all content. I prefer to have as many recordings sound good to me as possible, and I find my tube amplification seems to work very well in meeting this goal. (Similarly, I'm sure that some people who've gone for strict accuracy can also enjoy music across a wide variety of recordings. Ultimately that comes down to the individual).

You have a point here. My way out of the conundrum is simply to arbitrarily define "accurate = good"*. I feel happier knowing that I'm hearing "the truth" even if the truth sounds a bit like dog doodie.

No joke, I found a recording that arguably sounded better on a mono bluetooth speaker in the corner of my garage than it sounds on my LCD-XC. It was just mixed for cheap 80s radios, I think, and they succeeded at the expense of everything else.

These recordings really test my ability to fully defend the position "accurate = good", (in my own mind) but even so, it's fairly solid ground as arbitrary positions go, and I'm reluctant to let it go.


*Before anyone has a stroke reading this... the definition of "good" is always subjective and therefore arbitrary, in all things. "Accurate = good" tends to be an implicit assumption / definition around here, but in the wider world, opinions vary.

 

[Keith_W]

You have a point here. My way out of the conundrum is simply to arbitrarily define "accurate = good"*. I feel happier knowing that I'm hearing "the truth" even if the truth sounds a bit like dog doodie.

No joke, I found a recording that arguably sounded better on a mono bluetooth speaker in the corner of my garage than it sounds on my LCD-XC. It was just mixed for cheap 80s radios, I think, and they succeeded at the expense of everything else.

These recordings really test my ability to fully defend the position "accurate = good", (in my own mind) but even so, it's fairly solid ground as arbitrary positions go, and I'm reluctant to let it go.

I have the same experience. My Bluetooth speaker makes all recordings sound "OK". I listen to a lot of historic classical recordings made in the 30's - 50's, and the sound of these is execrable on my main speakers. They sound like giant gramophones. On the BT speakers, nothing sounds amazing, but then nothing sounds bad either.

 

[mhardy6647]

As Peter Dennis Blandford Townshend once wrote:

Distortion becomes somehow pure in its wildness
The note that began all can also destroy

 

[Doodski]

I have the same experience. My Bluetooth speaker makes all recordings sound "OK". I listen to a lot of historic classical recordings made in the 30's - 50's, and the sound of these is execrable on my main speakers. They sound like giant gramophones. On the BT speakers, nothing sounds amazing, but then nothing sounds bad either.

I have what is the latest Samsung Galaxy S23 cellular telephone with what is supposed to be a very new version of Bluetooth and the Samsung Galaxy Buds2 Pro ear buds and they sound fantastic. I don't notice anything strange about the audio. I think they have Bluetooth good enough now

 

[kemmler3D]

I have what is the latest Samsung Galaxy S23 cellular telephone with what is supposed to be a very new version of Bluetooth and the Samsung Galaxy Buds2 Pro ear buds and they sound fantastic. I don't notice anything strange about the audio. I think they have Bluetooth good enough now

BT audio quality has been good enough for most purposes as long as you had AAC or APTX, for a while. LDAC improves things a bit more and is probably beyond audibility for most people most of the time.

However, high-quality transducers and amps, and Bluetooth chipsets have not often found themselves in the same box until more recently. People have been reluctant to spend real money on a BT headphone or speaker, but the market for <$100 stuff has been hot, and so the upward progress on that hasn't been fast.

 

[Adi777]

add some HD to taste if desired,

How?

 

[JSmith]

How?

There are many plugins etc. that will do this for you and more from free to paid;

PKHarmonic VST Plugin - Audiophile Harmonics Generator | Distort documentation

PKHarmonic 1.0 is the initial release of this software. Use at your own risk!

distortaudio.org

Harmonics and Harmonic Distortion | Korneff Audio Inc

A simplified explanation of music instrument harmonics, and harmonic distortion.

korneffaudio.com

How to Add Harmonic Distortion for Analog Warmth - Waves Audio

Harmonic distortion was a given in the analog recording world and helped create excitement in analog recordings: get tips on how to achieve it in-the-box.

www.waves.com

Some SMSL devices have "sound colour" modes for e.g. which change the harmonic profile, as per;

JSmith

 

[kemmler3D]

How?

There are also a bunch of plugins that do harmonic distortion dynamically in the way that old solid state gear does here: https://varietyofsound.wordpress.com/

 

[MattHooper]

(*warning, subjective impressions incoming, please don your sunglasses or visor shields....*)

I was thinking of this thread after my experience today. I've been thinking for years it would be fun to have a solid state amp around to throw in to my 2 channel system sometimes (replacing my CJ tube amps/preamp). Then it occurred to me..duh!...I have a solid state amp, my Denon AV Receiver. (130 W into 8ohms/180W into 4ohms). It's just so complexly wired up for my HT stuff I'd never have thought to use it. But I just bought some speaker extension cables:

https://www.amazon.ca/dp/B08Q2YRPPL?ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details&th=1

These made it really easy to just unplug the cables going to my L/R home theater system and extend those cables out to my 2 channel Joseph Audio speakers.

I could only use a digital source, so I streamed some albums I know well to my AV receiver.

Boy that was fun! I had the exact same experience every time I do this: Wow...*that* sure sounds different!

Gone was the slightly golden glow of the tube sound, replaced with a super clean, precision. Recordings sounded even more "precise" in terms of the teeniest bits of
character, reverbs, different drum cymbals being struck, etc. Bass was both in tighter grip, strong, yet perfectly balanced at all times. My recent set up had given me really tight bass from my system...for a tube amp...but this reminded me, yeah, it can get even better with a solid state amp.

I listened for some hours, quite fascinated, to lots of stuff I knew well, including some Level 42 tracks I've been playing on vinyl lately (80's fusion/funky stuff). It sounded so powerful, yet controlled, with deeper bass than I remember from the LP. Though...some aspects seemed a bit lacking from what I usually crave. The sound was a bit "see through," drum snares etc had precise timbre, but less air-moving snap than I'm used to. Also, voices tended to sound more electronic than I'm used to, sibilance with many female pop vocals harder and more steely, a bit more distracting and edgy.

Time to add some more distortion back.......

I swapped the cables back so I was now playing the same sources, but through my CJ tube preamp and monoblock tube amps!

Well....*that* sure sounds different! There was that glow again, that solidity, with that relaxed quality. The sound "lit up" in a way that sounded more live, yet also more relaxed and not "bright." Vocals sounded more soft and fleshy, sibilance "relaxed" in to the vocals sounding more plausibly human, horns in orchestral parts lit up with that golden brassy glow I'm familiar with. With my AV receiver recordings sounded like great recordings; with the tube stuff it had a bit more "it's live" presentation.

Time for more distortion! I changed to LP, throwing on that Level 42 vinyl I'd been listening to (excellent recording). First impression: yup, the bass wasn't as powerfully deep. BUT...there was that solid snappy "crack" of the snare drum I'd been missing. And the punchier "bap" of the kick drum impact. And everything just solidified more, even if a teeny bit of precision in timbre/detail was given up.

I can see someone preferring either one, but I absolutely preferred the tube presentation (and LP as well). It just reminds me of how I got to where I am with my system.

Still, until perhaps I pick up a spare solid state amp, I'll be using my AV reciever sometimes, because it's a nice change and I certainly do appreciate aspects of the sound. I just wouldn't want to live there, I think.

(*ladies and gentlemen, the *subjectivist* has left the building, you are free to take off your visors and get back to technical talk....*)

 

[Keith_W]

Begone, subjectivist!! *waves fist*

If you have a PC you can try what I have done - add distortion in a controlled manner and according to taste. I find it is more predictable that way.

 

[kemmler3D]

(*warning, subjective impressions incoming, please don your sunglasses or visor shields....*)

I was thinking of this thread after my experience today. I've been thinking for years it would be fun to have a solid state amp around to throw in to my 2 channel system sometimes (replacing my CJ tube amps/preamp). Then it occurred to me..duh!...I have a solid state amp, my Denon AV Receiver. (130 W into 8ohms/180W into 4ohms). It's just so complexly wired up for my HT stuff I'd never have thought to use it. But I just bought some speaker extension cables:

https://www.amazon.ca/dp/B08Q2YRPPL?ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details&th=1

These made it really easy to just unplug the cables going to my L/R home theater system and extend those cables out to my 2 channel Joseph Audio speakers.

I could only use a digital source, so I streamed some albums I know well to my AV receiver.

Boy that was fun! I had the exact same experience every time I do this: Wow...*that* sure sounds different!

Gone was the slightly golden glow of the tube sound, replaced with a super clean, precision. Recordings sounded even more "precise" in terms of the teeniest bits of
character, reverbs, different drum cymbals being struck, etc. Bass was both in tighter grip, strong, yet perfectly balanced at all times. My recent set up had given me really tight bass from my system...for a tube amp...but this reminded me, yeah, it can get even better with a solid state amp.

I listened for some hours, quite fascinated, to lots of stuff I knew well, including some Level 42 tracks I've been playing on vinyl lately (80's fusion/funky stuff). It sounded so powerful, yet controlled, with deeper bass than I remember from the LP. Though...some aspects seemed a bit lacking from what I usually crave. The sound was a bit "see through," drum snares etc had precise timbre, but less air-moving snap than I'm used to. Also, voices tended to sound more electronic than I'm used to, sibilance with many female pop vocals harder and more steely, a bit more distracting and edgy.

Time to add some more distortion back.......

I swapped the cables back so I was now playing the same sources, but through my CJ tube preamp and monoblock tube amps!

Well....*that* sure sounds different! There was that glow again, that solidity, with that relaxed quality. The sound "lit up" in a way that sounded more live, yet also more relaxed and not "bright." Vocals sounded more soft and fleshy, sibilance "relaxed" in to the vocals sounding more plausibly human, horns in orchestral parts lit up with that golden brassy glow I'm familiar with. With my AV receiver recordings sounded like great recordings; with the tube stuff it had a bit more "it's live" presentation.

Time for more distortion! I changed to LP, throwing on that Level 42 vinyl I'd been listening to (excellent recording). First impression: yup, the bass wasn't as powerfully deep. BUT...there was that solid snappy "crack" of the snare drum I'd been missing. And the punchier "bap" of the kick drum impact. And everything just solidified more, even if a teeny bit of precision in timbre/detail was given up.

I can see someone preferring either one, but I absolutely preferred the tube presentation (and LP as well). It just reminds me of how I got to where I am with my system.

Still, until perhaps I pick up a spare solid state amp, I'll be using my AV reciever sometimes, because it's a nice change and I certainly do appreciate aspects of the sound. I just wouldn't want to live there, I think.

(*ladies and gentlemen, the *subjectivist* has left the building, you are free to take off your visors and get back to technical talk....*)

I had a thought just now, reading this.

What if we take some people who have never been exposed to audio marketing or reviews, and tell them tubes sound cold, precise, clean. We tell them solid state sounds warm, juicy, full, alive. And then we give them some sighted listening tests and see what they say?

It's received wisdom at this point that tubes and solid state have different, opposed characters, regardless of how true it is. But because we all know that, can we really conclude anything when our subjective listening matches expectation?

If their subjective experiences contradicted the "instructions" for expectation bias, I think that would actually be VERY interesting.

 

[Travis]

(*warning, subjective impressions incoming, please don your sunglasses or visor shields....*)

The science on that, after numerous DBT tests, has firmly established that sunglasses and visors are utterly useless and any perceived benefit is strictly from placebo effect. A tin foil hat (preferably cryogenically treated to align the electrons properly) is really what you want.

 

[Travis]

What if we take some people who have never been exposed to audio marketing or reviews, and tell them tubes sound cold, precise, clean. We tell them solid state sounds warm, juicy, full, alive. And then we give them some sighted listening tests and see what they say?

It’s called priming.

Get someone who has never heard Stairway to Heaven backwards and play it and ask did you hear anything unusual in that passage? They will say gibberish, words being played backwards.

But prime them with this and ask, please listen and see if you can hear any of these passages and they will say, “clear as day.” And once you are primed, there is no going back.

So here's to my Sweet Satan.
The other's little path
Would make me sad,
Whose power is faith.
He'll give those with him 666.
And all the evil fools,
they know he made
us suffer sadly.

 

[Galliardist]

I had a thought just now, reading this.

What if we take some people who have never been exposed to audio marketing or reviews, and tell them tubes sound cold, precise, clean. We tell them solid state sounds warm, juicy, full, alive. And then we give them some sighted listening tests and see what they say?

It's received wisdom at this point that tubes and solid state have different, opposed characters, regardless of how true it is. But because we all know that, can we really conclude anything when our subjective listening matches expectation?

If their subjective experiences contradicted the "instructions" for expectation bias, I think that would actually be VERY interesting.

This would come down to what the words mean though. So, we do as you say, and then use a typical SET amp that does sound different for the tube amp and we use an amp with highish levels of high order distortion for the solid state amp.
All that happens is that they say the tube amp is "cold" where we would say "warm", and so on. You've not changed the effect one bit, you've only changed the description.

Also, while you haven't exposed your subjects to audio marketing, they still have a lifetime of listening to/hearing music. Since one key part of the brain that is used to understand music is also used for memory (shown in studies of dementia, as why music is a good therapy for late stage dementia), it makes sense that we are still using memory of what we've heard to understand what we are hearing now.

I'd propose a hypothesis that we have a built in bias towards the type of sound we have been exposed to in the past, and that that bias is likely to become stronger as our hearing deteriorates with age and we use our brains more to understand what we are hearing. It's also likely that we will prefer sound coming from devices that look the same, and operate in the same way, as devices we've used in the past; and that we will also draw on other things we've seen subconsciously (so if a person we've seen and trust in a TV series always uses a tube amp, that may register a positive impression on us).

So the result may be interesting, but we'd need to do more than just put forward words to get an understandable result.

 

[MattHooper]

I'd propose a hypothesis that we have a built in bias towards the type of sound we have been exposed to in the past, and that that bias is likely to become stronger as our hearing deteriorates with age and we use our brains more to understand what we are hearing. It's also likely that we will prefer sound coming from devices that look the same, and operate in the same way, as devices we've used in the past; and that we will also draw on other things we've seen subconsciously (so if a person we've seen and trust in a TV series always uses a tube amp, that may register a positive impression on us).

Interesting. Though the hypothesis seems a bit vague, and I'm not sure of the evidence it would have.

Just taking myself as an example: I didn't grow up using tube amps, they were a totally new thing to me once I got in to the "high end audio" scene. So in referencing
the "type of sound" I was exposed to "in the past" which would count as 'the past' sound you'd hypothesize I would be drawn toward? The sound/technology I grew up with in to my mid 30s - solid state? Or the 20 or so years since when I've used tube amps? Where exactly does this "past" we will be drawn towards as we age reside?

As for vinyl, I grew up with vinyl, but eagerly embraced CDs early on. So if I even posit myself as buying records from 12 years old onward, that would mean I bought records for maybe 13 years or so at which point I'd switched to CDs for about the next 30 years, until I started buying records again as well. So the vast majority of my music/audio life was in the digital era.

So I'm unsure on your hypothesis which sound I should be drawn to as I age and why.

Also, it seems at least on first glance that your hypothesis seems unsupported anecdotally. I've observed that it's mostly the older generation, the ones who grew up with records, expressing puzzlement at why anyone would want to go back to vinyl. They suffered through all the problems with vinyl and are very happy with the new world of digital sound. Much of the vinyl revival now is coming from the younger generation who grew up with digital. So their young lives will comprise both digital listening formats and vinyl.

I'm unsure how your hypothesis would actually account for this, or play out.

 

[Galliardist]

Interesting. Though the hypothesis seems a bit vague, and I'm not sure of the evidence it would have.

Just taking myself as an example: I didn't grow up using tube amps, they were a totally new thing to me once I got in to the "high end audio" scene. So in referencing
the "type of sound" I was exposed to "in the past" which would count as 'the past' sound you'd hypothesize I would be drawn toward? The sound/technology I grew up with in to my mid 30s - solid state? Or the 20 or so years since when I've used tube amps? Where exactly does this "past" we will be drawn towards as we age reside?

As for vinyl, I grew up with vinyl, but eagerly embraced CDs early on. So if I even posit myself as buying records from 12 years old onward, that would mean I bought records for maybe 13 years or so at which point I'd switched to CDs for about the next 30 years, until I started buying records again as well. So the vast majority of my music/audio life was in the digital era.

So I'm unsure on your hypothesis which sound I should be drawn to as I age and why.

Also, it seems at least on first glance that your hypothesis seems unsupported anecdotally. I've observed that it's mostly the older generation, the ones who grew up with records, expressing puzzlement at why anyone would want to go back to vinyl. They suffered through all the problems with vinyl and are very happy with the new world of digital sound. Much of the vinyl revival now is coming from the younger generation who grew up with digital. So their young lives will comprise both digital listening formats and vinyl.

I'm unsure how your hypothesis would actually account for this, or play out.

You've hit the nail on the head, in that I'm not thinking about our "audiophile" past as the thing that will fix those memories. It may be the TV you watched as a child, something at school, the local cinema, or some strange combination of things that acts to make someone prefer a particular sound. It's also about which things work best to allow you to construct the reaction you "crave" (to use the term in the title here): which may be different from anything you've previously met, in practice.

So how the hell would you test my idea?

 

[HappyPantherFan]

Re: If one instrument sound different in different venues. Well they surely do! They are pieces of vibrating boxes, with each surface radiating different sub-pieces of music at different angles, phases, etc. It’s like loudspeaker-room interaction taken to the extreme. In a truly unnerving way.

I can attest that, sitting in the balcony gives me a very uneven mix, but with THE best violin sounds - they are aiming up at me after all. Grand piano sounds powerfully expressive and clean from front-row-center where I can see the reflection of the strings. I’d be sacrificing the sound a little if I moved left to see the maestro’s hand. Then we have oboes aiming at the floor, and brass aiming at the ceiling. Have fun picking your favorite compromised seat in the concert hall!

It also took me roughly a year to identify the piano recordings as piano sound - they are nowhere like the crappy uprights of my childhood! That and we learn to discriminate violas from violins. Thus I don’t think we are born to predict what an instrument would sound in an unfamiliar venue. We learn to ignore the sonic differences instead.

 

[Phorize]

Good point, it is probably music dependent. I should have added that I only listen to classical music, and so do the majority of people who came over to visit.

Probably need to factor for masking at certain frequencies. I don’t recall the exact figures but I’m fairly sure that when Earl Geddes was a Ford he found that distortion of up to 10% was inaudible at certain lower frequencies.

 

[solderdude]

Re: If one instrument sound different in different venues. Well they surely do! They are pieces of vibrating boxes, with each surface radiating different sub-pieces of music at different angles, phases, etc. It’s like loudspeaker-room interaction taken to the extreme. In a truly unnerving way.

I can attest that, sitting in the balcony gives me a very uneven mix, but with THE best violin sounds - they are aiming up at me after all. Grand piano sounds powerfully expressive and clean from front-row-center where I can see the reflection of the strings. I’d be sacrificing the sound a little if I moved left to see the maestro’s hand. Then we have oboes aiming at the floor, and brass aiming at the ceiling. Have fun picking your favorite compromised seat in the concert hall!

It also took me roughly a year to identify the piano recordings as piano sound - they are nowhere like the crappy uprights of my childhood! That and we learn to discriminate violas from violins. Thus I don’t think we are born to predict what an instrument would sound in an unfamiliar venue. We learn to ignore the sonic differences instead.

Yep those are the challenges of making a good recording for just 2 speakers.... after that we only need to get used to the room the music is played in (combined with speaker radiation properties etc) or the coloration of a headphone with all its peculiarities.

The brain is very good at 'learning' this when it is given enough time and will create its own 'reference' for that particular circumstance.
Move the same speakers substantially in that room or to another room, or use other speakers (different presentation/dispersion pattern) and the brain has to do it all over again.

This is something entirely different than non-linear distortion being added and liked or not though.

 

[HappyPantherFan]

We wanted to ask ‘if the distorted signature is pleasing’, then we need a way to isolate that signature. I propose we compare two different tracks at a time, one distorted the other not. Later on we may come back to the same tracks with the distortion status reversed, but we don’t directly AB test the same track. The gist is instead of looking at how distortion make specific sounds different, we are now forced to judge how the mix sounds overall - is there some sounds we miss, that’s only present when there is/not distortion, no matter the music?

If the global distortion thing works like Loudness War, the preference could be reversed. One compressed track is preferred to the other less-compressed track when played side-by-side, but the argument ‘if A<B, B<C, then it follows A<C’ fell apart as we all know today.

Put it the other way, the array of distorted tracks may win against individual undistorted tracks one-by-one, but the lack of diversified sound could dictate their ultimate defeat. The classical recordings from 40+ years ago sounded more or less the same. I can only tolerate such sameness if they crop up in my queue only occasionally.