Do we crave distortion?

[Keith_W]

Well, I suppose the amount of 2nd/3rd harmonics added by my direct-heated tube buffer IS sufficient to mask higher order products, because it sounds subjectively significantly cleaner to me. I'd love to be subject to a double-blind test.

That can be easily arranged. We can create a file with the distortion built in and see how many can tell which one has the distortion or "sounds better". How many are interested?

 

[DavidMcRoy]

How do you know?



Are you absolutely sure that you are hearing any disortion at all?

Part of my hypothesis is that people (inluding myself) are appallingly bad at detecting distortion in music playback. It takes specific training to gain the ability to detect low level distortion in music, and once you have that ability the notion of it being pleasing disappears completely. It would make way more sense if it turned out that we aren't really finding distortion itself pleasing, but are instead enjoying some simple side effect of it.

I appreciate your skepticism. I worked in audio for video and broadcast TV audio for 40 years, so I consider myself a "trained listener."

 

[DavidMcRoy]

That can be easily arranged. We can create a file with the distortion built in and see how many can tell which one has the distortion or "sounds better". How many are interested?

I'm game! Let's do it.

 

[DavidMcRoy]

Eh, I think I may have been unclear. There’s a sort of sonic characteristic that’s unmistakably archaic in those recordings. Is it owing to mixing decisions or limitations in devices, I do not know. I do know that whenever a sense of familiarity crops up I’d bring up the player to find it’s a recording from distant past. Italian dishes have much diversity in their tastes, but Italians wouldn’t have dreamed of tacos and sushi, so there is a certain Italian-ness to those dishes after all.

It has always escaped me how the old recordings were preferred yet no new recordings replicated the sound of the past. Think of the arsenal the engineers had in shaping sound, you’d expect they can replicate whatever sound we customers prefer.

Maybe they knew old recordings sound good, but also knew that there are other unimaginable ways a recording may sound good? Same for distortions and other sound treatments.

Sound mixing professionals use tubes and tube plug-ins all the time. I hear it on voice tracks (where all types of distortion are most easily detected, in my experience, because there's no place for it to hide in the brief silences between the words) all day long on some TV commercials, movies, etc. It's a very distinctive sound. Engineers don't do it for their health.

To clarify, I'm talking about pleasant-sounding distortion components that serve to distract the listener from underlying distortion in the signal that may be unpleasant, OR to simply add a pleasant stimulus to an otherwise pristine signal. For all I know there may be an element of nostalgia for that sound for some of us.

Audio production is part of the entertainment industry. It isn't usually a test laboratory for absolute fidelity. I find ultra-clean audio pleasant, but I find just the right kind and amount of added distortion enhances the experience for me, even though it obviously stands in the way of ultimate fidelity. Critics will complain about departures from absolute fidelity, but that might not have been among the goals of the project.

I'm reminded of this story: when confronted by a boardroom filled with record executives in the 1980s who wanted Joni Mitchell to adopt synthesizers into her projects, she protested, "stop trying to interior decorate me out of my music." As the artist, she wanted to be in charge of artistic decisions. (Ultimately, the execs beat her up on it. They hired Thomas Dolby to colaborate with her. His name appears on her album credits, yet Mitchell has never even met him. Those records didn't sell particularly well.)

 

[DJNX]

We crave for flavor.
Distortion adds flavour.

That being said, enough of it is added (purposefully) during the production of a song.
Adding more (distortion) to the summed, mastered audio, with tubes or poorly engineered speakers, is not a good approach.

 

[Chr1]

Have to say that I disagree. Massive generalisation. There is no "right" amount.There is so much poorly produced music out there. But I bet you would find most folks prefer "some" flavour rather than "none" in a blind test. Some love lots.
I think that it has been shown that most folks prefer a warm/full sound to one that is overly thin/bright
Aparently that's OK if its EQ...less so valves. Not quite sure why. I get that you can tweak EQ, and I do, but that doesn't make valves bad. Like to switch between transparent and flavoured myself.

 

[Bjorn]

But why does it sound thin/bright? Generally due to frequency response devations and bothersome specular energy. What's the better approach; Deal with the root or try to cover it with a blanket of added warmth?

 

[Chr1]

Sorry, I am talking about recordings that are on the thin/bright side... And there are lots. Often recorded as the engineer intended. Or not. Not quite sure why adding warmth on playback via EQ is seen as clever, but even good valve gear is the work of the devil.
I switch between transparent (Neumann KH310s) and flavoured (VTL/Tannoy) with two BK 12" subs and MathAudio RoomEQ. Even with the valves. Works for me.

 

[antcollinet]

Not quite sure why adding warmth via EQ is seen as clever but with good valve gear the work of the devil

Because

1 - good tube gear shouldn't be adding warmth anyway - good tube gear will be transparent.
2 - Tube gear that changes the audio in some way is fixed at some random alteration. The chances of it changing the audio in the exact way needed for a given circumstance is slim - and you are stuck with it. No adjustment possible. If it doesn't suit your room/speakers, or music genre - tough.

It is a dumbass way to try to adjust the sound to suit your speakers/room/preference.

 

[Chr1]

So does that go for all the best valve mikes and multitude of extremely high quality pieces of valve equipment used in the production of music since way back? They actually add the same kind of distortion.

I don't actually agree with the idea that good valve amplifiers don't add any distortion whatsoever. These days, what with the cost of electricity, you'd be daft to use one that doesn't.

How much warmth/distortion and of what type you choose to add is obviously personal/subjective. Just like EQ. Not a fan of huge blooming SETs myself but I enjoy tweaking the bias on my class A amps and prefer the tone of my Tannoy V12s with valves. Plus EQ.

 

[Sal1950]

So does that go for all the best Manley valve mikes and multitude of extremely high quality pieces of valve equipment used in the production of music since way back? They actually add the same kind of distortion

That's the production of music, it's final sound determined by the artists & engineers.
The reproduction should add nothing, that's why its called reproduction.

 

[antcollinet]

So does that go for all the best Manley valve mikes and multitude of extremely high quality pieces of valve equipment used in the production of music since way back? They actually add the same kind of distortion.

We're talking about reproduction equipment, not studio kit (or at least, I am)

I don't actually agree with the idea that good valve amplifiers don't add any distortion whatsoever.

Oh, there'll be distortion, and more than most solid state. Audibility is questionable though. It is quite possible to design tube amps whose distortion is inaudible. Output impedance impacts though might be a different issue.

How much warmth/distortion and of what type you choose to add is obviously personal/subjective

Yes, exactly - so how can you choose how much you add when it is baked into the gear?

 

[kemmler3D]

That's the production of music, it's final sound determined by the artists & engineers.
The reproduction should add nothing, that's why its called reproduction.

This all boils down to a philosophical point of view, and we don't all agree on this point.

Is it proper for the listener to adjust the sound of the recording to their taste? Or is that the preserve of the artist and engineer?

If you think it's OK to EQ for warmth and even add distortion, then you are in the former camp, and you have a lot of decisions to make on how to alter the sound to your liking.

If you think fidelity = good, period, then you are in the latter camp, and your only task is to remove distortion and get speakers that create a sound field that corresponds well to what was heard in the studio.

I don't know that there is an objective answer to this question. Is it right to alter the experience away from what the artist intended? Is it wrong? Does the artist's intent matter, or are you a devoted postmodernist with no allegiance to the author, and a disdain for the concept of authenticity?

Are we even asking the right question here, or does individual hearing vary so much that "altering to one's taste" is less editorial and more corrective to begin with?

I have no idea!

 

[Chr1]

Don't get how on one hand peeps here say:

"A good valve amp doesn't add anything"...

... And "Just tweak EQ if you want that valve warmth".

Can't be both ways surely. I get that valves used in playback alters the sound. As does EQ. Or no?

 

[antcollinet]

Don't get how on one hand peeps here say:

"A good valve amp doesn't add anything"...

... And "Just tweak EQ if you want that valve warmth".

Can't be both ways surely. I get that valves used in playback alters the sound. Just like EQ. Or no?

Just like any kit - they can be desinged as noise and distortion generators. Or they can be designed to be clean. Your two quoted statements are not contradictory.

Further - I don't believe distortion is a source of warmth. It certainly isn't for me.

 

[kemmler3D]

I get that valves used in playback alters the sound. Just like EQ. Or no?

Definitely not the same thing. Adding distortion is a way to add warmth, but the frequency balance is shifted by adding harmonics, not by changing the amplitude of existing harmonics.

 

[Chr1]

Okay.

But do you not agree that high quality studio valve gear, be it mikes, preamps or whatever are just adding the very same distortion?

Why is it so wrong in playback. I get that it's not "Hifi", but not much different from changing EQ surely? Both are changing the sound of the recording as the engineer intended it.

 

[kemmler3D]

Okay.

But do you not agree that high quality studio valve gear, be it mikes, preamps or whatever are just adding the very same distortion?

Why is it so wrong in playback. I get that it's not "Hifi", but not much different from changing EQ surely?

They are adding more or less the same kind of distortion, maybe even the exact same depending on the playback amp.

This is the same question as "Why is it so wrong to salt my food at a fancy restaurant, the chef is surely using the same salt, so what's the big deal"?

In fact there's no objective answer to that, but you can see why some people would take issue with doing it.

I would actually say the analogy between salt and distortion is pretty good. But by adding more (in either case) you're saying the artist / chef didn't do it right in the first place. Some would find that point of view inappropriate.

 

[Chr1]

They are adding more or less the same kind of distortion, maybe even the exact same depending on the playback amp.

This is the same question as "Why is it so wrong to salt my food at a fancy restaurant, the chef is surely using the same salt, so what's the big deal"?

In fact there's no objective answer to that, but you can see why some people would take issue with doing it.

I would actually say the analogy between salt and distortion is pretty good. But by adding more (in either case) you're saying the artist / chef didn't do it right in the first place. Some would find that point of view inappropriate.

I agree. I think that the food seasoning analogy is a good one. And for me going without seasoning is not an option...

If only all my musics recording production was of Michelin quality.

As previously mentioned : surely EQ is also changing the sound from how it was originally recorded... And nowadays, via plugins, is frequently used to emulate valves in studios

 

[Prana Ferox]

I crave distortion