Do high-efficiency speakers really have better 'dynamics'?

[DrCWO]

I still hear exactly this whenever I stop closely and listen to live drums. Most hi-fis sound like a sonic joke compared to the real thing.

On most recordings Drums run through a compressor to limit dynamics. To be sure uncompressed drum recordings should be compared with live drums.

 

[DrCWO]

I've heard several current horn systems, including the Avantgarde, and to me they all sound like a typical 'shouty' horn to some degree.

Frequency response of horns often is not quite linear. Use tools like Acourate to flatten the frequency response. The shoutyness is gone and the dynamic characteristic of the horn stays. Such a combination is my absolute favorite.

 

[puppet]

I think what the Devore O/96 has going for it .. pertaining to low frequency production/impact .. has to do with the baffle width. Like older speakers did, these have better low frequency pattern control.

 

[Purité Audio]

Rolls off a cliff at 45Hz, not my idea of ‘low frequency production/impact.’
https://www.stereophile.com/content/devore-fidelity-orangutan-o96-loudspeaker-measurements
Keith

 

[MattHooper]

Rolls off a cliff at 45Hz, not my idea of ‘low frequency production/impact.’
https://www.stereophile.com/content/devore-fidelity-orangutan-o96-loudspeaker-measurements
Keith

Yep. Not an ASR-friendly speaker ;-)

And yet I found that the lower frequencies gave a subjective impression the belies what those measurements imply. It's a very common observation that those Devores produce a scale of sound, not simply the size of soundstage but the sense of big instrument scale, that you wouldn't expect from their size. So for instance one of my standard test tracks is a Conan soundtrack that uses big kettle drums. I'd played that on all the speakers I own, and all the floor standing speakers I auditioned and never heard Kettle drums sound that big and authentic as they did through the Devore speakers, vs many others I tried or my own speakers (e.g. Thiel 3.7, Thiel 2.7, Joseph Audio Perspectives).

Similarly I auditioned the Devores right after auditioning the Magico A3 speakers which have a stated frequency response of 22Hz–50kHz.
Whatever their actual in room response, I could hear that the Magicos seemed to go really low in the bass. However the same drum tracks on the Magicos just didn't sound as real to me as on the Devores - on the Magicos they sounded like a very clear recording, but with my eyes closed the Devores produced a "gestalt" of what drums actually sound like to my ears, that the more full range Magico just didn't recreate.

Doesn't mean you would agree of course.

 

[MattHooper]

On most recordings Drums run through a compressor to limit dynamics. To be sure uncompressed drum recordings should be compared with live drums.

Yes, strictly speaking.

But the characteristics I described ran across a large number of tracks, in fact almost anything I played on the various speakers. Which is what I'd really want: how a speaker will play the music I actually listen to vs only some select audiophile-grade tracks. (Though I include well recorded tracks of course).

 

[Chromatischism]

Yep. Not an ASR-friendly speaker ;-)

And yet I found that the lower frequencies gave a subjective impression the belies what those measurements imply. It's a very common observation that those Devores produce a scale of sound, not simply the size of soundstage but the sense of big instrument scale, that you wouldn't expect from their size. So for instance one of my standard test tracks is a Conan soundtrack that uses big kettle drums. I'd played that on all the speakers I own, and all the floor standing speakers I auditioned and never heard Kettle drums sound that big and authentic as they did through the Devore speakers, vs many others I tried or my own speakers (e.g. Thiel 3.7, Thiel 2.7, Joseph Audio Perspectives).

Similarly I auditioned the Devores right after auditioning the Magico A3 speakers which have a stated frequency response of 22Hz–50kHz.
Whatever their actual in room response, I could hear that the Magicos seemed to go really low in the bass. However the same drum tracks on the Magicos just didn't sound as real to me as on the Devores - on the Magicos they sounded like a very clear recording, but with my eyes closed the Devores produced a "gestalt" of what drums actually sound like to my ears, that the more full range Magico just didn't recreate.

Doesn't mean you would agree of course.

In my experience with subwoofers, the experience you get can differ even with the same frequency response, due to differences in tactile sensations (mostly vibrations). In that sense, my ported subs "seem" more powerful than my sealed subs were of the same brand in the same location and with the same frequency response. I know I'm getting the same sound, but our bodies add in the floor rumble and other sensations to the sum of the experience. That was especially apparent comparing to the dual opposed subs which had none of that. You can test this similarly by putting isolation pads underneath.

Is it possible the construction of the Devores provides more of that than the Magicos?

 

[Godataloss]

Isn't it a matter of simple physics? If a given transducer can produce the same sound energy with far less excursion, it's not constantly fighting it's own inertia.

 

[MattHooper]

In my experience with subwoofers, the experience you get can differ even with the same frequency response, due to differences in tactile sensations (mostly vibrations). In that sense, my ported subs "seem" more powerful than my sealed subs were of the same brand in the same location and with the same frequency response. I know I'm getting the same sound, but our bodies add in the floor rumble and other sensations to the sum of the experience. That was especially apparent comparing to the dual opposed subs which had none of that.

Is it possible the construction of the Devores provides more of that than the Magicos?

I just don't know enough to dissect it technically.

But shooting from the hip, and channeling some other discussions I've seen on the speakers, they do have a more lively cabinet plus I think some lively port noise that remains pretty high (in to the upper base?...sorry...I'm writing this not looking at the measurements at the moment), plus they have that wide baffle for launching the sound. Maybe it's one or all these things combined that add some thickness to the sound (?).
One thing that struck me over and over on the Devores was the sound of piano tracks I knew well. The problem with piano on so many systems is that they sound like disembodied keys floating in space, being struck. Whereas a live piano has the huge resonating body and/or soundboard aiming all that acoustic power, so it sounds like keys striking something with a large body. That's what I kept hearing on the devores - pianos weren't just floating keys, but it sounded like an actual piano body being activated with the key hits. As a piano player this activated my "this sounds more like a real piano" sensation. However, I'd surmise it was likely I was hearing a coloration added by the cabinet etc, as cited above.

So in this case I can see a listener coming to different conclusions. One person may immediately hear that extra "body" as a coloration, and instantly write off the speaker, where someone else may find that coloration adds something welcome in mimicking an aspect of "the real thing."

As for lower bass stuff, I just sold off my subwoofers, crossover DSpeaker anti-mode Dual Core etc. I found that the sound with subs was a bit more linear and did some good things, but overall I found the sound of my Thiel speakers on their own sounded more tonally believable, and had a "better" sense of density and punch to the sound, so for instance drums had more kick/feel/presence . Even though lower bass was present with subwoofers, things felt more muted in impact. Probably some level of coloration I enjoy, but it's not one that sticks out as "obvious coloration" to my ears, but rather as a bit more "believable" and engaging.

 

[GXAlan]

For me the best drum kick sound with midrange snap to emphasize that was the JBL 250Ti. Not a really expensive speaker but it had the chops.

“officially” the 250Ti’s were designed to be the opposite of what you have. (Vertical edge faces center/medial) and angled edges face outside/ lateral. An “A pattern” as opposed to a “V pattern.”

That said, I am sure there are rooms where reversing it sounds better.

 

[Chromatischism]

One thing that struck me over and over on the Devores was the sound of piano tracks I knew well. The problem with piano on so many systems is that they sound like disembodied keys floating in space, being struck. Whereas a live piano has the huge resonating body and/or soundboard aiming all that acoustic power, so it sounds like keys striking something with a large body. That's what I kept hearing on the devores - pianos weren't just floating keys, but it sounded like an actual piano body being activated with the key hits. As a piano player this activated my "this sounds more like a real piano" sensation. However, I'd surmise it was likely I was hearing a coloration added by the cabinet etc, as cited above.

That sounds plausible. However, I would think if we wanted that effect, we would capture it in the recording. Then, it would translate to all speakers. It sounds like you're listening to piano recorded with a close-mic technique and not picking up as much of the body?

As for lower bass stuff, I just sold off my subwoofers, crossover DSpeaker anti-mode Dual Core etc. I found that the sound with subs was a bit more linear and did some good things, but overall I found the sound of my Thiel speakers on their own sounded more tonally believable, and had a "better" sense of density and punch to the sound, so for instance drums had more kick/feel/presence . Even though lower bass was present with subwoofers, things felt more muted in impact. Probably some level of coloration I enjoy, but it's not one that sticks out as "obvious coloration" to my ears, but rather as a bit more "believable" and engaging.

Sub/room integration is very complex and there are endless combinations of settings, curve shapes, etc. Isolation or none, subtle differences in the shape of the curve noticeably change the balance of the presentation.

 

[MattHooper]

That sounds plausible. However, I would think if we wanted that effect, we would capture it in the recording. Then, it would translate to all speakers. It sounds like you're listening to piano recorded with a close-mic technique and not picking up as much of the body?

Agreed that is the ideal. But since the actual range of music I (and most of us, likely) would listen to would comprise all sorts of different types of recordings, many recordings would be missing that recorded sense of body. So someone may like a generalized added sense of body to pianos and other instruments.

Like I said, listener dependant. I personally found that the added richness was just enough to tweak the sound to something I found more pleasant and believable across many recordings, but not so much as to immediately register to me as an obvious coloration. One's MMV...

Sub/room integration is very complex and there are endless combinations of settings, curve shapes, etc. Isolation or none, subtle differences in the shape of the curve noticeably change the balance of the presentation.

Agreed. I'm sure there were plenty of possible avenues I didn't explore, given even more experimenting/dialing in. It just happens I reached my personal limit for how much time and complexity I wanted to add to my system. I found myself very happy with the speakers as they were. I feel relieved to have less equipment in the room visually, or to bother fiddling with (and running/hiding cables, etc).

 

[jcgriff]

FWIW....

I auditioned the Devore O/96 speakers extensively, with my reference tracks, in more than one system.

My impression was that they had a thicker, richer sound than most speakers, but also a slightly more "live vibe" to the sound in the sense that the dynamics of how the musicians were playing seemed to flow more easily. I was continually made aware more of the different dynamic emphasis drummers were putting on the snare and kick drum as they played, on tracks I knew well, that seemed to bring the playing more "alive."

I have limited experience with horn speakers not having owned horns, only heard at stores, shows and more recently Klipsch speakers a number of times at a friend's place, using some of my demo tracks.

While the Devores struck me as having more lively dynamics than many other speakers, it wasn't the same as a horn speaker. Horn speakers usually really strike me as having a very "live-like" present sound in respect to a sense of "solidity" to the instruments. The crack of a snare drum, the drum stick on a rim or cymbal, a blaring sax or horn, they seem more solid and pushing air like a real instrument, as opposed to the more ghostly quality of the usual box speaker. The leading edges, the transients in particular. On an average speaker, I could point right to where horn or drum snare is appearing, but it sounds like I could just wave my hand through it, like a sonic hologram. Horn speakers give me the sense that I could reach out and actually feel a solid instrument.

The Devores had a rich, thick sound, and there was a great sense of "moving air in the room" to make you feel the effort of the musicians. But it was more relaxed than real life, especially the lead edge transients, a softening of the sound vs real life, less focused and solid than the horn-based speakers. (Though, having said that, I found the Devores more convincing than many other box speakers with the sense of clarity and solidity - drums sounded more real to me than on other speakers, but not quite the level of a horn speaker).

Anyway, that's how I heard things.

So did I Matt. After reading about high sensitivity speakers with low wattage valve amps I wanted to hear some so I went to listen to the Devore O/96's just yesterday. I tried listening to the same test tracks on my system just before I left (Revel F228Be/ARC VT100 MKll/Conrad Johnson ACT2/VPI Classic Series 3/RME ADI2 DAC fs) and left the session with the same feeling about the Devores as Matt. (They were paired with a Jadis 60wpc tube integrated.) There was a richness, a weight, to the sound as well as an ability to present every nuance, especially on vocals. I started by playing two tracks by Gregory Porter, God Bless this Child, (an acapella version from Be Good) and then Liquid Spirit (Claptone Remix), and while polar opposites the Devores presented each convincingly, seeming to display each tracks strengths equally well. (By the way if the remix of Liquid Spirit doesn't get you moving you're dead!)

I'm not at your guys level technically (I'm trying to learn) and don't have much experience with horns at all, but I really liked what I heard. I especially appreciated their sound at lower volumes. By the time I left I liked them enough that I'm already starting to rationalize how I might swing getting a pair.

 

[tuga]

I especially appreciated their sound at lower volumes.

This is a bit which I find very relevant but often disregarded: resolution when reproducing low-level signals.

 

[DrCWO]

There was a richness, a weight, to the sound as well as an ability to present every nuance, especially on vocals. I started by playing two tracks by Gregory Porter, God Bless this Child, (an acapella version from Be Good) and then Liquid Spirit (Claptone Remix), and while polar opposites the Devores presented each convincingly, seeming to display each tracks strengths equally well. (By the way if the remix of Liquid Spirit doesn't get you moving you're dead!)
pair.

I like to know if anybody has an idea how to measure what you heard here...

 

[pogo]

I like to know if anybody has an idea how to measure what you heard here...

See my answer in the past:
Link

 

[DrCWO]

Pogo thank you, but that's not what i mean.

I'm looking for a qualitative number such as the Interaural Cross Correlation (IACC), which giving me the "microdetail quality" of a loudspeaker. Of course it depends on the room. But if, for example, you put the O/96s and the speaker to be compared in any decent listening room (no hall with echoes or something like this), you will likely get the result that the O / 96s provide better micro-details there too.

In short: How to get this figure?

 

[dasdoing]

I don't think there will ever be an objective measurement of this effect

there is. ETC

that early reflections smear the transients should be obvious.

 

[dasdoing]

I still hear exactly this whenever I stop closely and listen to live drums. Most hi-fis sound like a sonic joke compared to the real thing.

there is one thing that diminishes that "punchyness" in analog audio: group delay in the low frequencies. with phase correction you can get that "umph" back

 

[Ken Tajalli]

Isn't it a matter of simple physics? If a given transducer can produce the same sound energy with far less excursion, it's not constantly fighting it's own inertia.

Not to forget associated increase in back emf which the amp has to deal with.