Tip for my system 2.1

[Mikig]

Please, I need advice I know it may be obvious for many of you, but outside of the old 5.1 system I don't usually use the subwoofer. I've "played" with it a few times but have never decided to use it permanently. I'll try again today!!
I tried a 2.1 configuration of my system. I abandoned my passive preamp (attenuator) for a moment to use the SMSL DO300 as a preamp.
The KHozmo does not allow me to use the output for the amplifier and the one for the sub at the same time. In fact, in a previous test the sound was poor almost as if it were "at half power".

I therefore decided to activate the two outputs of the SMSL: the balanced one towards the amplifier and the unbalanced one towards the subwoofer.

The sub in question is a Meridian M1500.

Technical Specification
In room response within 3dB, 30Hz-400Hz (Bypass). Switchable 2nd order Butterworth crossover with settings at 80Hz and 120Hz.
Typical output >107dB spl @ 1m.
Noise and hum <-72dBm.
Distortion <0.1%, typically less than 0.02% up to full power at all relevant frequencies.
Unbalanced on phono connectors 6V-500mV.
Two 250mm high-efficiency long-throw custom drivers with 2kg shielded magnet in a magnesium basket.
Veneered MDF braced and damped, in black with 6mm annealed plate glass top.
Complementary high-efficiency bipolar design, with output- stage error correction and twin feedback loop.
200W mean power continuous.


The speakers are the Piega Twen Anniversary.

Type: 2 way, 3 driver loudspeaker system
Frequency Response: 45Hz to 50kHz
Recommended Amplifier: 20 to 150W
Impedance: 4Ω
Sensitivity: 90dB
Bass: 2 x 100mm MDS cone
Tweeter: 1 x LDR ribbon

The bass seems slow to me, it's a bit muddy.
On the back of the sub I find the Fiat-80-120 switch.
The manual says to start with 80 and then adjust, with the gain.
I used two signal cables in the L-R + position because the output is in phase.

But it doesn't convince me. The bass that comes out is not clean and dynamic. For now I have positioned it to the left of the right speaker, almost in line with it.
Location problem?
Setting problem?
Source problem (DO300)?

I accept advice!! I also have a Velodyne CHT12r as an option. Thank you!!

 

[krabapple]

Hmm, the bass is 'slow', maybe it needs some coffee?

Modal issues and thus, placement issues, would be my first guess. Other placement, and/or DSP to knock down modal peaks, would be the fix.

But your system seems over-complex for purpose, to me, with my simple AVR that has a handy subwoofer output jack (two actually), and built-in DSP. So my suggestion is probably nuncupatory.

 

[Mikig]

Hmm, the bass is 'slow', maybe it needs some coffee?

Modal issues and thus, placement issues, would be my first guess. Other placement, and/or DSP to knock down modal peaks, would be the fix.

But your system seems over-complex for purpose, to me, with my simple AVR that has a handy subwoofer output jack (two actually), and built-in DSP. So my suggestion is probably nuncupatory.

hi, thanks for the reply.
No, the system is very simple: DO300, power amplifier, speakers and subwoofer.

 

[OldTimer]

I used to put the sub far from the front speakers because it doesn’t belong to them. Put it as far as it can from your listening position, better hide it somewhere else. That’s why wireless sub is preferred than wired.

 

[Mikig]

HI. I can try moving around a bit. Even if the sub's manual says to use for the 2-channel configuration a small arrangement to the speakers and facing the listening point.

 

[anotherhobby]

I think it's very difficult to get a good sub integration without the following:

• ability to add delay to either sub(s) or speakers (you need to delay the drivers that are physically closest to you).
• ability to apply a matching crossover to both the sub(s) and the mains (the mains almost always need to be high passed)
• ability to add parametric EQ to smooth the bass response (or use automated EQ like Dirac, Audyssey, etc)

Those are the primary levers used to integrate one or more subs. Without those, you are kind of left with moving the sub around as one of the few things you can do to help. To get the features above, you'd need something like a miniDSP.

 

[Mikig]

I think it's very difficult to get a good sub integration without the following:

• ability to add delay to either sub(s) or speakers (you need to delay the drivers that are physically closest to you).
• ability to apply a matching crossover to both the sub(s) and the mains (the mains almost always need to be high passed)
• ability to add parametric EQ to smooth the bass response (or use automated EQ like Dirac, Audyssey, etc)

Those are the primary levers used to integrate one or more subs. Without those, you are kind of left with moving the sub around as one of the few things you can do to help. To get the features above, you'd need something like a miniDSP.

I have a crossover, Infinity, the one for the IRS Epsilon. It is active, do you think it can also be used for other speakers/subs? If necessary, I could use the preamplifiers I had in the 5.1 AV system I was using at the time. But they never drove me crazy at 2-channel stereo level. So I could control the various parameters!

 

[Mikig]

but I have a question!

do all users using a 2.1 setup all have DSP or crossover??

 

[Godataloss]

Please, I need advice I know it may be obvious for many of you, but outside of the old 5.1 system I don't usually use the subwoofer. I've "played" with it a few times but have never decided to use it permanently. I'll try again today!!
I tried a 2.1 configuration of my system. I abandoned my passive preamp (attenuator) for a moment to use the SMSL DO300 as a preamp.
The KHozmo does not allow me to use the output for the amplifier and the one for the sub at the same time. In fact, in a previous test the sound was poor almost as if it were "at half power".

I therefore decided to activate the two outputs of the SMSL: the balanced one towards the amplifier and the unbalanced one towards the subwoofer.

The sub in question is a Meridian M1500.

Technical Specification
In room response within 3dB, 30Hz-400Hz (Bypass). Switchable 2nd order Butterworth crossover with settings at 80Hz and 120Hz.
Typical output >107dB spl @ 1m.
Noise and hum <-72dBm.
Distortion <0.1%, typically less than 0.02% up to full power at all relevant frequencies.
Unbalanced on phono connectors 6V-500mV.
Two 250mm high-efficiency long-throw custom drivers with 2kg shielded magnet in a magnesium basket.
Veneered MDF braced and damped, in black with 6mm annealed plate glass top.
Complementary high-efficiency bipolar design, with output- stage error correction and twin feedback loop.
200W mean power continuous.


The speakers are the Piega Twen Anniversary.

Type: 2 way, 3 driver loudspeaker system
Frequency Response: 45Hz to 50kHz
Recommended Amplifier: 20 to 150W
Impedance: 4Ω
Sensitivity: 90dB
Bass: 2 x 100mm MDS cone
Tweeter: 1 x LDR ribbon

The bass seems slow to me, it's a bit muddy.
On the back of the sub I find the Fiat-80-120 switch.
The manual says to start with 80 and then adjust, with the gain.
I used two signal cables in the L-R + position because the output is in phase.

But it doesn't convince me. The bass that comes out is not clean and dynamic. For now I have positioned it to the left of the right speaker, almost in line with it.
Location problem?
Setting problem?
Source problem (DO300)?

I accept advice!! I also have a Velodyne CHT12r as an option. Thank you!!

I would bet you have the sub playing too loudly. In my experience if you notice the sub as anything more than filling the low end, you need to back off the level if you are tuning by ear.

 

[HarmonicTHD]

but I have a question!

do all users using a 2.1 setup all have DSP or crossover??

Yes, I do. If you want to take advantage of separate sub / mains, this is the key feature to have.

Advantage: Sub placement independent of mains and therefore optimal for mode minimization. Relieving the mains of low frequency transmission and therefore better distortion (especially at high SPL). Smooth FR transition from sub to mains. For all this you need to xover and time align the sub / mains, which is done by a DSP.

 

[Mikig]

I would bet you have the sub playing too loudly. In my experience if you notice the sub as anything more than filling the low end, you need to back off the level if you are tuning by ear.

I started from low gain and increased the gain. Now it's just under halfway. Can the sub overlap and cancel out some speaker frequencies?

 

[Godataloss]

I started from low gain and increased the gain. Now it's just under halfway. Can the sub overlap and cancel out some speaker frequencies?

Try backing it off 10% at a time until the offending sounds go away.

 

[Mikig]

Try backing it off 10% at a time until the offending sounds go away.

Yes, I will calmly set about doing a similar procedure!

but what do you recommend?

80Hz or 120Hz?

I exclude the Flat or Bypass position because obviously since there is no crossover before it makes it appear to be a sort of third speaker.

 

[Mikig]

Yes, I do. If you want to take advantage of separate sub / mains, this is the key feature to have.

Advantage: Sub placement independent of mains and therefore optimal for mode minimization. Relieving the mains of low frequency transmission and therefore better distortion (especially at high SPL). Smooth FR transition from sub to mains. For all this you need to xover and time align the sub / mains, which is done by a DSP.

yes, I could try. Do you know what I'm sorry about?

I should find a device that does pre/Dac/xover/dsp, all in one.

I come from a previous system experience with "multiplication of devices and cables" and I have never had good results, except for a lot of extra noise and a lot of extra complication.
So now I'm a little reluctant to add "boxes upon boxes" to my system...

 

[anotherhobby]

I should find a device that does pre/Dac/xover/dsp, all in one.

This is what I use. Does everything on your list: https://www.minidsp.com/products/minidsp-in-a-box/flex

It would not be an addition, as it is a DAC, it would replace your SMSL DO300.

 

[Mikig]

This is what I use. Does everything on your list: https://www.minidsp.com/products/minidsp-in-a-box/flex

It would not be an addition, as it is a DAC, it would replace your SMSL DO300.

It seems very interesting to me!

 

[Ze Frog]

Is subwoofer sealed or ported? I prefer sealed myself especially with 'fast' speakers, far easier to match up.

 

[Mikig]

Is subwoofer sealed or ported? I prefer sealed myself especially with 'fast' speakers, far easier to match up.

I actually have 3 subwoofers, but they are mysterious objects to me: I have never paid particular attention to the subject. I do some tests from time to time, but I have never found a configuration that satisfies me. In the meantime I should get some longer cables that give me the possibility to move it. I've also tried several PreAvs that I have but I'm too lazy to study the crossover configurations they offer...sooner or later I'll get into it.....

 

[Calypso1]

I actually have 3 subwoofers, but they are mysterious objects to me: I have never paid particular attention to the subject. I do some tests from time to time, but I have never found a configuration that satisfies me. In the meantime I should get some longer cables that give me the possibility to move it. I've also tried several PreAvs that I have but I'm too lazy to study the crossover configurations they offer...sooner or later I'll get into it.....

With the MiniDSP and two of those subwoofers, you could have a 2.2 system with speaker in-room response corrections (PEQs), gains, time delay correction, etc. a whole new world!

 

[Mikig]

With the MiniDSP and two of those subwoofers, you could have a 2.2 system with speaker in-room response corrections (PEQs), gains, time delay correction, etc. a whole new world!

It's true: however, my subs are different from each other. I would therefore necessarily have to go with 2.1. Unfortunately I have to argue with myself: I have learned to love very basic systems. But above all for 40 years, I have always used the sub only for HT. Where I come from, it seems strange to say, it is not used in 2-channel audio, or rather, it has always been considered for HT and therefore I grew up a bit with that philosophy. In recent years perhaps it is starting to be appreciated. I've been hearing about it so much since reading ASR. So I started to take the first steps: but as with everything, first you need to understand something in order to appreciate the differences or benefits...