Do better measurements equal better sound?

[rbradshaw]

This is my first post but I’ve been reading reviews on this forum for a long time.

I currently own a SMSL Sanskrit 10 and Ive been thinking about changing DACs. I see the measurements and the rankings but I’m curious where the line of diminishing returns begins. Outside of the measurements, can a difference be heard? Should I buy a M500?

current setup:

Roon & Tidal
Chromecast Audio (Optical only as a room endpoint)
SMSL Sanskrit 10
Marantz PM8006 (preamp only)
PrimaLuna Prologue Four
Focal Aria 926s

Will a better DAC be an upgrade or am I asking a nonsensical question?

I appreciate the feedback.

 

[WolfX-700]

This is my first post but I’ve been reading reviews on this forum for a long time.

I currently own a SMSL Sanskrit 10 and Ive been thinking about changing DACs. I see the measurements and the rankings but I’m curious where the line of diminishing returns begins. Outside of the measurements, can a difference be heard? Should I buy a M500?

current setup:

Roon & Tidal
Chromecast Audio (Optical only as a room endpoint)
SMSL Sanskrit 10
Marantz PM8006 (preamp only)
PrimaLuna Prologue Four
Focal Aria 926s

Will a better DAC be an upgrade or am I asking a nonsensical question?

I appreciate the feedback.

"Better sound" is a difficult concept to define.Because no one knows your preference for sound.

But consider that your SMSL is at the bottom of the ranking, and now there are a lot of cheap devices (such as Topping's D50s) near the top of the ranking.

If it were me i would try.

 

[VintageFlanker]

Outside of the measurements, can a difference be heard? Should I buy a M500?

current setup:

Roon & Tidal
Chromecast Audio (Optical only as a room endpoint)
SMSL Sanskrit 10
Marantz PM8006 (preamp only)
PrimaLuna Prologue Four
Focal Aria 926s

Yep, you should try yourself.

In theory, tho: I doubt either your amp or "preamp" would take benefits from a M500. Or you should try the M500 as a direct preamp in that case... But you'll still have to deal with tubes distortion.

 

[rbradshaw]

I use the S/PDIF connection which has a SINAD of 101... I’m very curious to know what I could hope to achieve. Will a better dac result in better sound stage or better imaging? I do believe the measurements are a good point of comparison but I am curious to know what impact that has on the sonic experience... in the analog world, when I stepped up to a high end turntable, the difference was clear and impressive. I’d like to have a similar DAC experience... my other components are of a quality that should scale...

Should I go all out and get a matrix MQA or will the SMSL 500 provide a similar experience?

 

[solderdude]

I use the S/PDIF connection which has a SINAD of 101... I’m very curious to know what I could hope to achieve. Will a better dac result in better sound stage or better imaging

SINAD and sound stage or better imaging are not related.

 

[rbradshaw]

Yep, you should try yourself.

In theory, tho: I doubt either your amp or "preamp" would take benefits from a M500. Or you should try the M500 as a direct preamp in that case... But you'll still have to deal with tubes distortion.

The Marantz Preamp section, sonically speaking, is pretty transparent. I connected my DAC to my amp using the Schiit Sys passive preamp and I could not discern any difference.

I love my current result but I am curious if I can make a change... I am considering switching to a Parasound A23+ power amp. Curious to give modern solid state a try but I may just prefer a “noisier” setup. Previously, I was more into vintage and i ran primarily with my Marantz 2230. I still use it for its phono preamp section.

 

[rbradshaw]

SINAD and sound stage or better imaging are not related.

Curious... what then does SINAD relate to? What is gained?

 

[Speedskater]

With accurate components, one wonders what 'sound stage' relates to?
Now with euphonic components, it's a different ball game.

 

[solderdude]

Curious... what then does SINAD relate to?

SIgnal to Noise And Distortion ratio (at 1kHz)
This means the tested device has to produce 1kHz and the generated number is ratio between all the 'energy' that is not supposed to be there and the (intended) 1kHz sine.
The ratio is expressed in dB to avoid gigantic numbers. Sometimes the 'dB' notation is left out.

SINAD says nothing about distortion numbers at frequencies other than 1kHz and about interchannel phase response etc.
It is just one of the numbers that indicates something about its overall performance.

I am not aware of any measurement numbers that would indicate imaging/sound stage.
Maybe phase response and rise/fall times have a relation to that.

 

[VintageFlanker]

The Marantz Preamp section, sonically speaking, is pretty transparent. I connected my DAC to my amp using the Schiit Sys passive preamp and I could not discern any difference.

Alright. I think any good DAC with digital volume control would be a cleaner option, I guess.

Curious... what then does SINAD relate to?

What its name says: it is related to Noise and Distortion.

I am not aware of any measurement numbers that would indicate imaging/sound stage.

Crosstalk, I guess. But that's often questionable here.

 

[Killingbeans]

in the analog world, when I stepped up to a high end turntable, the difference was clear and impressive. I’d like to have a similar DAC experience...

Turntables are plauged by noise and distortion to a much, much higher degree than DACs. So much that it becomes significant in relation to the distortion from the speakers and the ambient noise floor of the room.

You will most likely not be able to have a similar experience with a DAC.

 

[rbradshaw]

I understand what SINAD means. I guess my question is this. The review measurements are essentially measuring qualities of the device. But I want to know how do those variables translate into the experience. what audible differences should I be listening for?

 

[rbradshaw]

Turntables are plauged by noise and distortion to a much, much higher degree than DACs. So much that it becomes significant in relation to the distortion from the speakers and the ambient noise floor of the room.

You will most likely not be able to have a similar experience with a DAC.

I am very aware and I am 100% not trying to engage in that age old debate.

Im more just trying to learn how to select a DAC and how to compare them. Do these measurements translate into audible differences and if so, what are they? What should I be listening for?

 

[Berwhale]

Read this: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-thresholds-of-amp-and-dac-measurements.5734/

 

[rbradshaw]

Read this: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-thresholds-of-amp-and-dac-measurements.5734/

Thank you!!!!

 

[solderdude]

I don't think you can get much better sound quality when going above 100dB SINAD.
That is assuming distortion doesn't rise too much at higher and lower frequencies.
Also sometimes SINAD could improve at say -5dBFS or at least distortion could be lower.
This one cannot hear when music is playing the 'dynamic range' of hearing is about 70 to 80dB so everything below it is simply not audible.

Check multitone measurements when available these say more about distortion.

Between cartridges (combined with pre-amp + wiring) the differences can be huge (as in many dB's peaking or roll-off) so very audible.
Not so with DACs, these are all equally 'flat' within the audible range (assuming proper design)

 

[rbradshaw]

I don't think you can get much better sound quality when going above 100dB SINAD.
That is assuming distortion doesn't rise too much at higher and lower frequencies.
Also sometimes SINAD could improve at say -5dBFS or at least distortion could be lower.
This one cannot hear when music is playing the 'dynamic range' of hearing is about 70 to 80dB so everything below it is simply not audible.

Check multitone measurements when available these say more about distortion.

Between cartridges (combined with pre-amp + wiring) the differences can be huge (as in many dB's peaking or roll-off) so very audible.
Not so with DACs, these are all equally 'flat' within the audible range (assuming proper design)

I appreciate the feedback thank you

 

[Berwhale]

Thank you!!!!

BTW - I recently bought a Sanskrit 10 cheap from Amazon Warehouse. It's the cheapest DAC I could find with decent measurements and a remote control. Unfortunately it had to go back as the output was faulty. I'm currently using the analogue out of my CCA and a Fiio K3 connected to the Pi4 running Volumio. I may well buy another Sanskrit if I see one cheap; it's unusual form factor exactly fills a hole in my living room setup and therefore has high WAF

 

[solderdude]

Is WAF a subjective thing ?
Equal for all women ?
If not it would be great to determine a number for it... would that be linear scale or dB ?

 

[pma]

I don't think you can get much better sound quality when going above 100dB SINAD.
That is assuming distortion doesn't rise too much at higher and lower frequencies.

Agreed, and the limit is lower, like 80dB, if speak about SINAD (distortion portion of this strange parameter). On the other hand, we want lowest noise, for the reason that amplifier may have high gain and it amplifies quiescent noise, or speakers may be very efficient, and noise is then an issue again. SINAD charts are interesting but not much meaningful. For the same reason, good very low noise preamplifier gives better noise behaviour than a digital volume regulation, which sends full noise at the output. As an example, with my DacMagic+ I get -106dBV(A) noise, but my best preamp has -120dBV(A) output noise. So, if I use the preamp behind the DacMagic+, I get 14dB noise improvement. The DAC works at full volume so its dynamic range is completely utilized.