DO ALL DACS SOUND THE SAME??

[wineandmusic]

I personally don't know what i believe. I have tried about 15 different DACS and i could not hear an appreciable difference in any of them (with all other hardware remaining constant). But i believed some sounded better than others. Some here (including Penguin), suggest that all DACS will sound the same if they measure well (assuming highest zone). But then someone who bought an A&K expensive dac suggested subjectively it beat other dacs, and I asked him in my thread why would anyone care about subjective opinions, if all dacs sound the same, expecting Penguin to jump in but he remained silent. So i am just curious what the concensus is here. Will all DACS sound the same if they are in the "highest" zone, or should subjective opinions matter?

 

[RayDunzl]

So i am just curious what the concensus is here. Will all DACS sound the same if they are in the "green" zone

Maybe.

Those Zones represent a single (though useful) measurement.

or should subjective opinions matter?

They can matter to the person holding the opinion.

 

[Wes]

I personally don't know what i believe. I have tried about 15 different DACS and i could not hear an appreciable difference in any of them (with all other hardware remaining constant). But i believed some sounded better than others. Some here (including Penguin), suggest that all DACS will sound the same if they measure well (assuming green zone). But then someone who bought an A&K expensive dac suggested subjectively it beat other dacs, and I asked him in my thread why would anyone care about subjective opinions, if all dacs sound the same, expecting Penguin to jump in but he remained silent. So i am just curious what the concensus is here. Will all DACS sound the same if they are in the "green" zone, or should subjective opinions matter?

Get together with some friends who have different DACs and swap them around during a blinded test.

 

[Doodski]

Will all DACS sound the same if they are in the "green" zone, or should subjective opinions matter?

They should all sound the same. There might be slight differences due to the peripheral circuitry around the DAC digital circuitry other than that the differences should be tiny.

 

[wineandmusic]

Maybe.
Those Zones represent a single (though useful) measurement.

so what is your opinion? that you don't know, and not willing to stand on one side or the other? If so, that is a respectable answer, and where my current beliefs are...but is seems some people stand firmly on one side or the other and like to use statements like "we believe".

 

[wineandmusic]

Get together with some friends who have different DACs and swap them around during a blinded test.

I don't believe that tests aren't fallible or proof of anything, and don't want to get into that argument. I am not even sure that I could pick a $100 dac from a $30K dac.

 

[wineandmusic]

They should all sound the same. There might be slight differences due to the peripheral circuitry around the DAC digital circuitry other than that the differences should be tiny.

So you believe there will be tiny differences. Many people spend thousands of dollars for tiny differences, and imho, that is ok.

 

[RayDunzl]

so what is your opinion?

My current opinion is that I forgot not to engage in a conversation with you.

 

[BDWoody]

I personally don't know what i believe.
...
But i believed some sounded better than others. Some here (including Penguin), suggest that all DACS will sound the same if they measure well (assuming green zone).

Penguin being @solderdude I presume...

 

[Wes]

Did SuperDud send you here?

 

[zym1010]

I personally feel there IS some difference between Topping D70 and Sabaj D5 (check my previous posts and my Amazon.com review under Sajaj D5) and ended up selling my D70. YMMV.

 

[Chrispy]

Have you gone thru this thread? https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...le-thinking-a-dac-has-a-sound-signature.9245/

Sounds like a lot of time/effort to try 15 dacs....can't even imagine wanting to spend the time doing that.

 

[b1daly]

When careful AB(X) type tests have been done the track record is not good for listeners of any skill levels being able to discern differences between converters. (Just from what I've picked up in discussions.) My gut feeling is that some listeners, with very good monitors, could distinguish between some different converters. But it's hard.

There are many challenges to doing well controlled AB testing, but my general notion is that if there really is dramatic differences between converters, then the sort of superlatives people describe when raving about their new fancy converter should be relatively easy to pick out in an informal AB test.

It's also possible that some 'boutique' converters are coloring the sound in ways that would make them easier to distinguish.

I'm interested in amps right now, and one of these months I'm going to figure out a way to do some comparative listening. My subjective feeling is that amps do sound different, in ways that are consistent, but I've been fooled enough to know I might be being fooled.

One thing I find has a huge impact on how I 'feel' about the sound of the amp is the resolution/taper of the volume control. Amps with 'endless knob' type digital converters, as opposed to old school potentiometers, feel 'less powerful' because you have to turn the volume knob much more to get the same level. It's a really strong effect.

 

[wineandmusic]

Good to see some diversity here....I mostly didn't understand opinions that start with "WE believe".

 

[wineandmusic]

It's also possible that some 'boutique' converters are coloring the sound in ways that would make them easier to distinguish.
.

but wouldn't that show up in measurements? I asked people for the purpose of this thread to assume good measurements.

 

[majingotan]

But then someone who bought an A&K expensive dac suggested subjectively it beat other dacs, and I asked him in my thread why would anyone care about subjective opinions, if all dacs sound the same,

I wouldn't trust that person's subjective bias of being expensive suddenly becomes superior to other DACs. I also own that A&K DAP and no it does not provide unicorn sound that other "colored sounding DAPs" such as Sony walkman DAPs have (by default it has DSEE HX DSP and S-master amp processor enabled and to hear its unadulterated sound, you must kill those processes in the settings). I also have 5 different DAC chips and the only sound difference I make with them is when I am attaching a real load to them such as headphones or IEMs. The DAC part has no audible difference under volume matching if I put all of them through condition no load test (i.e. behind that Schiit Saga preamp I have there)

BTW, the only professional subjective review I agree with is from a headphone.com staff (former SBAF member who reviewed tens of DACs subjectively under "Life after Yggdrasil" thread) where he specifically mentions that my AK DAP provides accurate sound without a coloration which confirms that its 0.0004% THD+N spec is audibly transparent.

 

[TomB]

I wonder if audible differences are not often related to differences in analog output stages. I have an MHDT tube DAC. It uses a tube output stage. Not only does it sound a bit different (not a lot) than my Khadas Toneboard, but it itself, sounds different with different output tubes.

 

[BDWoody]

I wonder if audible differences are not often related to differences in analog output stages. I have an MHDT tube DAC. It uses a tube output stage. Not only does it sound a bit different (not a lot) than my Khadas Toneboard, but it itself, sounds different with different output tubes.

All of which show up in measurements...

 

[DaaDaa]

the green is just the top 25% in SINAD, if all DACs were to sound the same, then it is not just the top 25% that MUST sound identical but also everything else above the threshold of the hearing of most will have to sound identical and that will most likely be everything above red must sound just about identical. But note that the term "above the threshold of hearing of most" is not a well defined thing. does it just mean frequency extention? does it mean that we all are equally sensitive to the differences between the distortion free dynamic output of the DACs what percentage of us are sensitive to 20 bits of dynamic range?

i have done one of those hearing tests and i dont hear anything below 60hz [edit: this is a typo, i meant 40hz] and above 16khz and i can for sure tell you that i hear a lot of differences between ESS sabre DACs and AKM dacs and also among ESS DACs. I dont hear any difference between SAbaj D5 and schiit Bifrost 2 but i hear a lot of difference between the old ESS DAC in peachtree NOVA and sabaj D5. the peachtree DAC sounds lifeless and dull to me while the sabaj and shciit sound great.

 

[wineandmusic]

I wonder if audible differences are not often related to differences in analog output stages. I have an MHDT tube DAC. It uses a tube output stage. Not only does it sound a bit different (not a lot) than my Khadas Toneboard, but it itself, sounds different with different output tubes.

And that analog output cannot be measured? Not being sarcastic, Just curious?