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Devialet Expert 200 Amplifier, DAC and Streamer Review

QMuse

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Why would I? Why the aggression?

What aggression M8? Take a deep breath and cool down - I was merely hopping to finally get an explanation for those failures.

Yet, all of you Devialet fans who know so much about the technology buil in their amps are conviniently passing around that question. Interesting, wouldn't you say?
 
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Thomas savage

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The fact this device suffered a critical failure is really only a side issue imo .

Why it's being used to mask the actual issue? There's loads of hand waving and world salad from folks that have a lot of ASR forums posts on their record but all in this thread.

I think of those folks as brand crusaders.
 

thumb5

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I'm fairly certain the majority of devialet owners are not audio forum members so your ' knowledge ' in this case is virtually meaningless yet you present with absolute certainty.
Look, I've already qualified what I said, and both the original statement and the later, qualified statement were made in the interest of providing technical information, or "value to the forum" if you like. If you don't think this was of interest, fine, but the confrontational attitude is frankly a bit tiresome and unnecessary.
 

sergeauckland

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I have no particular love for Devialet, but do admire their styling and iconoclastic design.
I propose this as a hypothesis:-
The lack of power at high frequencies isn't a fault if the sole purpose of the amplifier is to reproduce speech and music under domestic circumstances. The fact that it can't output more than a few watts at high frequencies is of no consequence when reproducing music at home. I can understand (but not agree with) why they don't publicise this limitation, but for their presumed target market, it doesn't matter.

Why they have this limitation I don't know, but it may have something to do with the very low profile of their case limiting the size of any inductors or other large components.

The fact that they are expensive again is a function of appealing to their target market and to the presumed cost of the case, materials and margins required by their dealers.

As I said, I have no particular love for Devialet, but commercial and technical decisions are made for reasons.

S
 

Xulonn

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The fallout of the stress of this coronavirus pandemic is interesting. I've seen examples of both butthurt and concern trolling at various threads here today.
 

QMuse

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As I said, I have no particular love for Devialet, but commercial and technical decisions are made for reasons.
S

And when repercussions of those technical decisions are disclosed by publicly publishing the measurements results it seems no effort is spared to make them seem irrelevant. Although they are, especially considering the price of the device. Also for reasons, I'd say.

Tell me Serge, would you dare shelving $10,000 for the Devialet amp and short it out with your famous screwdriver, as I'm sure you did several times with your $800 Behringer A500?
 

Tks

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Let's see how this "vastly superior" new Devialet model faired in Stereophile test:

Here it managed to put only 8W when IM test was performed:

" I ran into problems when I tried to test for intermodulation distortion with my usual mix of 19kHz and 20kHz tones. The amplifier went into protection with sustained high-power, high-frequency tones, reducing the output level. The spectrum in fig.9 was taken at 8Wpc into 4 ohms, the highest power the amplifier would deliver continuously without its protection operating. "

And here it shows non-symmetrical behaviour between left and right channel:

"When I increased the bit depth from 16 to 24 with a dithered 1kHz tone at –90dBFS, the random noise floor dropped by >20dB in the left channel (fig.13, blue trace), meaning that the Devialet's digital inputs offer almost 20 bits' worth of resolution in this channel. However, the noise floor in the right channel (red trace) is higher than it is in the left and has an odd scalloped appearance. "

And here is how it did on jitter test:

"Finally, tested for its rejection of word-clock jitter with 16-bit USB data, all the odd-order harmonics of the LSB-level, low-frequency squarewave were below the level of noise (fig.16; their correct levels are indicated by the sloping green line). However, a pair of sidebands at ±120Hz to the sides of the peak that represents the high-level tone at one-quarter the sample rate can be seen, these power supply-related. Note that I had to reduce the volume to "–24" to make this measurement, to avoid the amplifier going into protection. "

Yep, I cannot think of a better word to describe this kind of performance than "superior". :facepalm:


LMAO I thought the amp reviewed was a one-off (why I thought this, I don't know.. the chances for broken devices from a probability standpoint is so low since people are sending their own functioning devices..). But this confirms it. Those people haven't an idea what they're doing.

Can anyone explain to me why anyone sells an amp that gives out at higher frequencies? What part of their design choices lead them to add protection at that point? Is it their pathetic power supply, or just a fatal design flaw they would need to throw out the kitchen-sink with?
 
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Thomas savage

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I have no particular love for Devialet, but do admire their styling and iconoclastic design.
I propose this as a hypothesis:-
The lack of power at high frequencies isn't a fault if the sole purpose of the amplifier is to reproduce speech and music under domestic circumstances. The fact that it can't output more than a few watts at high frequencies is of no consequence when reproducing music at home. I can understand (but not agree with) why they don't publicise this limitation, but for their presumed target market, it doesn't matter.

Why they have this limitation I don't know, but it may have something to do with the very low profile of their case limiting the size of any inductors or other large components.

The fact that they are expensive again is a function of appealing to their target market and to the presumed cost of the case, materials and margins required by their dealers.

As I said, I have no particular love for Devialet, but commercial and technical decisions are made for reasons.

S
Yes , start with the case then engineer the electronics to fit .

If this is the case I actually think it's good engineering and quite some achievement.

When this was discovered in the stereophile testing that would of been the time for devialet to explain ...

But it was swept under the carpet.

It's a bit like the phantoms being disposable, to achieve the performance in the form factor they had to make engineering choices or compromises. Alas you can't open them to repair them . Brilliant little speakers imo .
 

sergeauckland

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And when repercussions of those technical decisions are disclosed by publicly publishing the measurements results it seems no effort is spared to make them seem irrelevant. Although they are, especially considering the price of the device. Also for reasons, I'd say.

Tell me Serge, would you dare shelving $10,000 for the Devialet amp and short it out with your famous screwdriver, as I'm sure you did several times with your $800 Behringer A500?
Good question. Firstly, I suppose I would never buy a $10000 amplifier when $150 amp like the A500 is perfectly adequate. But then, I'm a functionalist with no appreciation of 'nice things.' * However, if I were to buy such an amplifier, then I probably would short the outputs out if the spec said it was protected. Somewhat academic I grant, given my proclivities for buying what meets my spec, not just what I fancy.


*My functionalist view also covers things like watches, cameras, tools, cars and many of the 'toys' we boys buy.

S
 

sergeauckland

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Yes , start with the case then engineer the electronics to fit .

If this is the case I actually think it's good engineering and quite some achievement.

When this was discovered in the stereophile testing that would of been the time for devialet to explain ...

But it was swept under the carpet.

It's a bit like the phantoms being disposable, to achieve the performance in the form factor they had to make engineering choices or compromises. Alas you can't open them to repair them . Brilliant little speakers imo .
The Phantom issue is the main reason I have no love for Devialet. I wonder just how repairable the amplifiers are except by putting a new board in that lovely case. Ditto all mobile 'phones and a lot of cheap modern electronics. They're cheap because they are machine-assembled and there's no provision for repair.

Yes, I too was very taken with the Phantoms. Frank and I shared a room at the UK Scalford exhibition where we had his Phantoms working. Very nice they were too. However, something stopped me buying a pair even before I knew they couldn't be repaired as I was uncomfortable with the reliance on software and how certain functions still weren't available.

I had similar doubts about Meridian's Modular amplifier in the 1980s, which was 'upgradeable' after purchase. As it wasn't commercially very successful, modules were discontinued fairly shortly thereafter leaving any customers who wanted additional modules left hanging.

S
 

QMuse

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Good question. Firstly, I suppose I would never buy a $10000 amplifier when $150 amp like the A500 is perfectly adequate. But then, I'm a functionalist with no appreciation of 'nice things.' * However, if I were to buy such an amplifier, then I probably would short the outputs out if the spec said it was protected. Somewhat academic I grant, given my proclivities for buying what meets my spec, not just what I fancy.


*My functionalist view also covers things like watches, cameras, tools, cars and many of the 'toys' we boys buy.

S

I haven't checked the specs in that much detail so I'm not sure Devialet claims that their amps can be shorted, but let's think one more time on what John Atkinson wrote in his test:

" I ran into problems when I tried to test for intermodulation distortion with my usual mix of 19kHz and 20kHz tones. The amplifier went into protection with sustained high-power, high-frequency tones, reducing the output level. The spectrum in fig.9 was taken at 8Wpc into 4 ohms, the highest power the amplifier would deliver continuously without its protection operating. "

So only 8Wpc into 4Ohms, that's probably around 4Wpc into 8Ohms right? And that is for an amp specced at 140Wpc at 6Ohms. Are you sure 4Wpc is sufficient to play freqs above 5khz when amp is cranked to 100W at 8 Ohms? Are we even supposed to wonder about that for an $10000 amp? Or for ANY amp???
 

pjug

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The lack of power at high frequencies isn't a fault if the sole purpose of the amplifier is to reproduce speech and music under domestic circumstances. The fact that it can't output more than a few watts at high frequencies is of no consequence when reproducing music at home. I can understand (but not agree with) why they don't publicise this limitation, but for their presumed target market, it doesn't matter.

I think it has to be either a fault in design or else a faulty unit. The Soundstage measurements of the Expert 130 do not show this issue.
https://www.soundstagenetwork.com/i...er&catid=97:amplifier-measurements&Itemid=154
1586805875680.png
 

QMuse

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I think it has to be either a fault in design or else a faulty unit. The Soundstage measurements of the Expert 130 do not show this issue.
https://www.soundstagenetwork.com/i...er&catid=97:amplifier-measurements&Itemid=154
View attachment 58646

So by sheer lack of luck Amir and John Atkinson both got faulty units? Maybe that's a sign that too many faulty units are flying around..

Btw, how do you explain that, to my knowledge, Devialet never reacted to Sterophile test and sent a functioning unit to John Atkinson for a re-test?

Hopefully Amir will be of a better luck with that.
 
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amirm

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I think it has to be either a fault in design or else a faulty unit. The Soundstage measurements of the Expert 130 do not show this issue.
https://www.soundstagenetwork.com/i...er&catid=97:amplifier-measurements&Itemid=154
As I noted in my frequency response post, the power limiting seems dynamic. It is taking into account more than one factor to do that. So it is possible that the soundstage unit does the same thing under the same conditions I and stereophile tested.
 

Thomas savage

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So by sheer lack of luck Amir and John Atkinson both got faulty units? Maybe that's a sign that too many faulty units are flying around..

Btw, how do you explain that, to my knowledge, Devialet never reacted to Sterophile test and sent a functioning unit to John Atkinson for a re-test?

Hopefully Amir will be of a better luck with that.
There probably would of been conversations between the two parties and likely it was decided they'd leave it hidden in plain sight .

Bit like the meetings any company might have with a marketing firm. :D
 

QMuse

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There probably would of been conversations between the two parties and likely it was decided they'd leave it hidden in plain sight .

Bit like the meetings any company might have with a marketing firm. :D

Well, Amira shares the same devotion of Harman group speakers and you mentioned more than once that Alan (aka @March Audio ) is the friend of the house. Of course, I would do the same in your shoes, as the big difference here is that you're not hiding your lieblings which makes things clean and transparent. Unlike some others do.. ;)
 

pjug

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As I noted in my frequency response post, the power limiting seems dynamic. It is taking into account more than one factor to do that. So it is possible that the soundstage unit does the same thing under the same conditions I and stereophile tested.
Maybe, but also consider that the unit you measured and also the one JA measured both fell way short of spec on THD+N. The Soundstage THD+N vs power graph is much closer to spec.
 

mhardy6647

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Out of curiosity, did any of the above-mentioned Stereophile reviews draw a "Manufacturer's Response" that was published? I cannot find any evidence that such was the case, but any such response(s) would be interesting, I'd think.
 

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Yes , start with the case then engineer the electronics to fit... When this was discovered in the stereophile testing that would of been the time for devialet to explain...

One might, just, be able to formulate an argument postulating that an amplifier designed to reproduce music (with its need for 30dB less power at 10kHz than 100Hz) can perform better if the designer does not have to cater for the unnecessary provision of full power at 10kHz.

A dubious argument....
 
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