Denon x3800h vs x4800h for sound?

[Tiago Pimentel]

Hi guys,

Building my home theater here: a 7.2.4 system with:

LCR - Arendal 1723 monitor S (all placed vertically because I'll be using an AT screen)
Other speakers I haven't decided yet
2x Tonewinner d6000 subwoofers

This will be a dark and acoustically treated room. I value sound a lot. For now I will just use an AVR to do everything (i do have a stereo hifi amp that I can use to power two of the speakers), so I really wanted a good sounding AVR (not just movies, but music as well).

I was leaning towards the Denon x3800h as the difference to the x4800h is negligible on paper. But after reading reviews here, it seems the 4800h got much better measurements when compared to the 3800. In real world human hearing, are these audible? Also, if you have a different recommendation, please do share.

Thanks!!
Tiago

 

[EWL5]

The delta of the 3800 vs 4800 measurements by Amir are the same as on paper (~20W over 2 channels)!

My advice is to get the 4800 only if its close to the $1300 street price we've seen in the past. If not, there's no reason to overpay for the 4800! 20W (again, over only 2 channels) won't give you a step change in sound quality! The difference in SINAD is also not audible (and hence Amir's "not recommend" for the 3800 is taken with grain of salt when 4800 is recommended)!

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[Tiago Pimentel]

Thanks! So if I go with the 3800 (the same goes for the 4800), I'll have to add a power amp to power two of the 11 channels. I do have an integrated stereo amp made by a guy in my country that manufactures audiophile gear. My question is: should I use this integrated amp to power two surround/heights or power L+R mains? And if the last one, should I get a mono for the center a well or is the denon more than enough?

Thanks!

 

[Oddball]

Except for 20W amp difference the only other potentially meaningful difference is 4800H is made in Japan vs. Vietnam for 3800H. Not sure what is the street price difference so you need to evaluate how you perceive that. I would personally go for 3800H but potentially if you plan to keep AVR for a while there might be some theory that 4800H might be "better built".

Re amp, try and see if amp sounds better on fronts then Denon and if it potentially can drive them harder. If Audy sets the volumes for fronts higher for the amp then for AVR, that would generally be indication that amp is less powerful then the AVR. Also can look at the FR from Audy to see how amp compares to AVR. If not fit for the fronts, then should hopefully do better for heights.

I would try without the amp for the center. Your speakers are not the easiest load but if recall correctly there are people running even their towers on AVRs. Will ultimately depend on the size or the room, distance to MLP and your desired SPL/distortion levels.

 

[Palmspar]

On the 4800 and cinema 40 each channel has his one pcb and dac.
In the 3800 and cinema 50 there are 2 pcbs for all channels.

 

[Tiago Pimentel]

On the 4800 and cinema 40 each channel has his one pcb and dac.
In the 3800 and cinema 50 there are 2 pcbs for all channels.

Really? I thought they were nearly identical inside. Would that cause an audible difference in sound quality/clarity?

 

[EWL5]

Thanks! So if I go with the 3800 (the same goes for the 4800), I'll have to add a power amp to power two of the 11 channels. I do have an integrated stereo amp made by a guy in my country that manufactures audiophile gear. My question is: should I use this integrated amp to power two surround/heights or power L+R mains? And if the last one, should I get a mono for the center a well or is the denon more than enough?

Thanks!

If you use external amps for 2 channels, let that be the L and R speakers and the 3800/4800 can handle the rest (that's how I have it set up). Don't forget to set those channels to "pre-out only" in the menu as the voltage is much better in this mode vs the default (as measured by Amir)!

Really? I thought they were nearly identical inside. Would that cause an audible difference in sound quality/clarity?

Yeah, I think the 3800 and 4800 are more alike than not (see pic). I've been actively looking for owner complaints for both units and the "made in Vietnam" 3800 is rock solid compared to the "made in Japan" 4800!

 

[peng]

Really? I thought they were nearly identical inside. Would that cause an audible difference in sound quality/clarity?

No it wouldn't. I used to ignore the 3000 series years ago, but since the AVR-X3600H, the 3000 series appears to have become the value king, that is, as mentioned, they are more similar to the 4000 series than not, at least in areas that impact on audible sound quality. Obviously the X4800H, and Cinema 40 are better built but that does not mean it would make audible sound quality differences, or reliability. On money no object basis then of course go for the higher models.

 

[PGAMiami]

I’ve never heard a 3800, but my 4800 sounds great. I’m using external amps for everything except the two height channels. Dirac is excellent.

 

[Tiago Pimentel]

If I decide to get a power amp for the mains to relieve the Denon for the other channels, I must get a power amp with at least 100w per channel, right? Any recommendation on a decent but affordable power amp like that?

Tiago

 

[peng]

If I decide to get a power amp for the mains to relieve the Denon for the other channels, I must get a power amp with at least 100w per channel, right? Any recommendation on a decent but affordable power amp like that?

Tiago

You don't have to if the only purpose is to "relieve" the Denon, but obviously to be of other benefits you should, in fact I would say at least 200 WPC 8 ohms, 300 W 4 ohms, and at distortions+noise much lower than Denon's own amp's.

 

[Tiago Pimentel]

Any recommendation? Maybe the Emotiva Bas X3?

 

[peng]

Any recommendation? Maybe the Emotiva Bas X3?

It would be better if you figure out your need first:

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[Oddball]

I would not go crazy on the amp unless you already overspent on the speakers. Solid amp or great amp if sized right are supposed to be neutral in your HT system, not really enhance it. Better speakers will always enhance your system up to the point where it starts yielding very little (which again is individual).

 

[Tiago Pimentel]

I already did the calculations. I loose 12dbs at 13' distance. My Arendal 1723 monitor S are 88dbs (4 Ohms) sensitivity, so at 2 watts, I'll get 76dbs. Which means to get 95dbs peaks I'll need 128w at least... am I doing calculations correctly?

 

[Oddball]

Peaks should be 105dB at 0 calibrated volume (at least if all is by the book)? But Arendal monitors will likely not get you there at 13 feet. That is not necessarily bad though - just to align the expectations. They don't recommend more than 300W @4ohm for the monitors, and that is for a reason - as excess would likely drive them into clipping.

 

[peng]

I already did the calculations. I loose 12dbs at 13' distance. My Arendal 1723 monitor S are 88dbs (4 Ohms) sensitivity, so at 2 watts, I'll get 76dbs. Which means to get 95dbs peaks I'll need 128w at least... am I doing calculations correctly?

That’s about right, but as Oddball mentioned, ref level is 105 dB for peak, and your speakers won’t get you there anyway even if you aim for that, so a god amp for your need could be a 200/300 W 8/4 ohm amp. I would recommend the buckeye amp’s NC502MP, or the Audiophonic or Apollon equivalents.

 

[Tiago Pimentel]

Thanks. Would this also be a good candidate?

Crown XLi 2500

2-Channel Analogical Power Amplifier 2 x 750 W / 4 Ohm, 2 x 500 W / 8 Ohm, 1500 W / 8 Ohm Bridge Mono, Signal To Noise Ratio > 100 dB, Damping Factor > 200, XLR/RCA input, Speaker Twist and binding post outputs, Turn-on delay, Protection against...

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[peng]

Thanks. Would this also be a good candidate?

Crown XLi 2500

2-Channel Analogical Power Amplifier 2 x 750 W / 4 Ohm, 2 x 500 W / 8 Ohm, 1500 W / 8 Ohm Bridge Mono, Signal To Noise Ratio > 100 dB, Damping Factor > 200, XLR/RCA input, Speaker Twist and binding post outputs, Turn-on delay, Protection against...

www.thomann.de

Based on specifications, I would still recommend those Hypex module based amps from the likes of buckeye amps. That's on paper only, in reality, if you need the output for your application, then the Crown amp could be a good choice. Just that, at low listening level in a very quiet room, combined with sensitive speakers, noise may be audible as even at the lowest gain setting, at 29 dB, it is not low enough to improve much on "noise".

XLi2500:

 

[Tiago Pimentel]

Ah, that makes sense!
Then this audiophonics seems perfect and easy for me to get (I'm in Europe).

AUDIOPHONICS AP300-S500NC Power Amplifier NCore NC502MP

The Audiophonics AP300-S500NC is a stereo amplifier based on a Hypex Ncore NC502MP amplifier module. It is ideal for providing a significant power reserve (2x500W @ 4Ω) without sacrificing sound reproduction quality.

www.audiophonics.fr