Denon PMA-600NE Integrated Amplifier Review

[Deleted member 48726]

Bluetooth is OK for phone calls in the car...

It has no place on proper HiFi.

Airpods Pro 2 is Bluetooth 5.3 and streams AAC 256 - 320 kbps.

The first link in my signature "lossy vs. lossless tests" has an iTunes test which compares lossless and AAC 256 kbps.

Bluetooth is not what it used to be. Thank God!

 

[DSJR]

I expect I'm going back way too far (almost like last week for me but hey...) when thinking of the PMA250 and 350 amps (i suspect the 350 is where this current model would be, so roughly double the price) and the incredibly 'big hearted' if not hugely refined PMA450SE. The 250 wasn't very powerful and sounded it, the 350 was great for a starter system with the '800 model' CD player and matching slim TU 260 tuner. The 450SE amp was a delight if uncontrolled into some speakers but not sure if it was ever properly tested.

Sorry fellas, I'm reading through this thread and feel you're being really hard on a low cost integrated amp with some facilities *and available from a dealer network* offering after care and hopefully a service department if needed! The kind of better quality dealer-supplied integrateds would arguably start at several hundred dollars/UK pounds now but having said that, does anyone here have a Yamaha 201 they could send in for testing, as it's a different layout than the 301 upwards and maybe more 'traditional' on the inputs and volume control and so on...

 

[Hammeredklavier]

What I appreciate about Amir's DAC tests is that I get to see affordable DACs plus I see DACs with the functions I'm looking for.

Another plus is that Amir also, sometimes, tests very expensive DACs that turn out not to add anything special. That way you don't have to buy them, if you're not a brand fanatic, that is.

Yeah, I love reading these technical tests. It's very educational and I like to see what's available and how it performs 'on the bench'.

I think some people perhaps just lose sight of reality. A DAC with noise and distortion pushed down to -140dB or whatever the state of the art is now will almost certainly be indistinguishable from one whose mush lies 120 dB below full scale. And you probably wouldn't hear any difference if the range was only ~80dB from noise to full scale.

It's all very interesting but people shouldn't lose sight of how minuscule these effects are. In the highly unlikely event you can hear these technical differences, they're inconsequential.

 

[Hipster Doofus]

Thank you for your great reply’s

 

[LTig]

So then 160 mV at the inputs.

As is stated in the dashboard (0.16V).

Any amp which can’t take 160 mV at the inputs is not good enough in 2023. However, that doesn’t seem to be the problem as one of the channels holds up with ‘direct’ mode on or off.

Correct.

 

[TurtlePaul]

It's all very interesting but people shouldn't lose sight of how minuscule these effects are. In the highly unlikely event you can hear these technical differences, they're inconsequential.

I agree regarding DACs with 140 vs 120 or even 80 SINAD. But that is not the topic here.

The bench for this product is that one channel is 70 dB SINAD or 65 dB with tone controls enabled. Is that good enough? I don’t think so. Some tube amps are within spitting distance.

With entry level parts it takes only modest engineering and attention to build detail to get to 80-90 dB SINAD. That is what I expected of this device. I would even excuse a lower SINAD due to power supply noise. That is not achieved here.

 

[LTig]

Bear in mind, we do not know the input level Amir drove the amplifier in that test.

We do: 0.16 V, see the comment in red at the left side of the dashboard.

The 600 may be just like the 500 with an active buffer in 'no' direct mode and, depending on the input level he drove it, he may have caused the poor showing by mistakenly overdriving the input. It is rated for ~100mV with a 46dB (200x) power stage behind it...

View attachment 326258

We can safely assume that the buffer opamp is powered by +/-15V (see the supply voltages). Would you assume that it could distort significantly higher at let's say 2V than at 0.16V? I think it's safe for up to ~8V.

The following tone/loudness circuit however might be a problem.

 

[Hipster Doofus]

Yeah, I love reading these technical tests. It's very educational and I like to see what's available and how it performs 'on the bench'.

I think some people perhaps just lose sight of reality. A DAC with noise and distortion pushed down to -140dB or whatever the state of the art is now will almost certainly be indistinguishable from one whose mush lies 120 dB below full scale. And you probably wouldn't hear any difference if the range was only ~80dB from noise to full scale.

It's all very interesting but people shouldn't lose sight of how minuscule these effects are. In the highly unlikely event you can hear these technical differences, they're inconsequential.

Thank You.

Great insight …which brings me to my next thought…it would be wonderful and quite useful to have an Amir’s Hierachy of Needs. You see, all of us with soft science degrees get turned around as we jump around from which is most important. If I may paraphrase. How can we avoid the “Tyranny of the Minuscule over the Consequential. In other words not only what matters but what matters most…within a few categories. Which number or specs matter most in each piece of equipment.

Well one can dream can’t one!


.

 

[DanielT]

Sorry fellas, I'm reading through this thread and feel you're being really hard on a low cost integrated amp with some facilities *and available from a dealer network* offering after care and hopefully a service department if needed! The kind of better quality dealer-supplied integrateds would arguably start at several hundred dollars/UK pounds now but having said that, does anyone here have a Yamaha 201 they could send in for testing, as it's a different layout than the 301 upwards and maybe more 'traditional' on the inputs and volume control and so on...

I agree with you. Entry-level, as I see Denon PMA-600NE to be, is a concept that can be applied to HiFi as well as the first job you get. Should those who are, or are starting to become a little interested, in fixing a decent sound immediately be recommended amp solutions upwards of at least $1000?

Denon PMA-600NE is as exciting as watching paint dry, BUT it does its job, fulfills its purpose.

 

[Deleted member 48726]

Thank You.

Great insight …which brings me to my next thought…it would be wonderful and quite useful to have an Amir’s Hierachy of Needs. You see, all of us with soft science degrees get turned around as we jump around from which is most important. If I may paraphrase. How can we avoid the “Tyranny of the Minuscule over the Consequential. In other words not only what matters but what matters most…within a few categories. Which number or specs matter most in each piece of equipment.

Well one can dream can’t one!


.View attachment 326332

Or just thresholds bound to real world use. A reality check is needed from time to time.

 

[Hammeredklavier]

I agree regarding DACs with 140 vs 120 or even 80 SINAD. But that is not the topic here.

The bench for this product is that one channel is 70 dB SINAD or 65 dB with tone controls enabled. Is that good enough? I don’t think so. Some tube amps are within spitting distance.

With entry level parts it takes only modest engineering and attention to build detail to get to 80-90 dB SINAD. That is what I expected of this device. I would even excuse a lower SINAD due to power supply noise. That is not achieved here.

I know what you mean, and at the retail price of $399 or £350, that's a poor showing.

I don't know if you saw the links I posted above but the PMA520 - basically the same amp but minus the DAC and Bluetooth - can be had for £180. I bought mine for £135. Bearing in mind that even with these technical deficiencies the amplifier is still probably transparent, it's perfectly recommendable at that price, given the many felicities (features, reliability, serviceability, remote, wife-friendly cosmetics etc). I wish I'd bought two!

 

[Hammeredklavier]

I may paraphrase. How can we avoid the “Tyranny of the Minuscule over the Consequential. In other words not only what matters but what matters most…within a few categories.

If you need a new DAC - just buy the cheapest one that has the features you need. They all sound the same. I go for DACs with high quality headphone amps, you might have different needs.

If you need an amplifier, choose the one with the power and features you need. As long as you don't buy one of these daft valve amps, it'll probably be transparent. In other words, ignore noise and distortion. Even if you can hear it it'll be nothing to worry about. Think power, features, reliability, and perhaps even efficiency - these new Class D things are amazing.

Speakers are a different kettle of fish...

 

[Overseas]

Out from, like, 7 amps, the PMA 600NE was the only one that I always said it sounds bad, even arguing with some friends that DID NOT hear it, but were very confident in Denon brand.

Bought it new for 200 euro and sold it for 350. Again, looks gorgeous, especially in silver. Not to me, I am after sound.

 

[Hammeredklavier]

Out from, like, 7 amps, the PMA 600NE was the only one that I always said it sounds bad, even arguing with some friends that DID NOT hear it, but were very confident in Denon brand.

Bought it new for 200 euro and sold it for 350. Again, looks gorgeous, especially in silver. Not to me, I am after sound.

Well, I know better than to tell people what they can and can't hear, but in a properly controlled blind listening test, I think you'd struggle to distinguish it from a state of the art amplifier. Even if you could do it it'd be hard.

 

[TonyJZX]

allegedly multiple people hear channel imbalance in multiple generations of these units so there's that

how is that acceptable? i would have no issue with these faults if this were a truly donkey z tier brand but did you see the flowery language on their website? its like as if marketing never actually even opened up a unit to listen to... not even once

kind of disappointing with an alleged top tier manufacturer cant get basics right

 

[TurtlePaul]

allegedly multiple people hear channel imbalance in multiple generations of these units so there's that

how is that acceptable?

It appears they are using a dual-gang pot for volume control. Higher end integrated amps and multi-channel amps use digital volume control which almost always has better channel matching.

 

[Hammeredklavier]

allegedly multiple people hear channel imbalance in multiple generations of these units so there's that

If you think channel balance is out of whack a control is provided to correct it.

 

[Bleib]

It appears they are using a dual-gang pot for volume control. Higher end integrated amps and multi-channel amps use digital volume control which almost always has better channel matching.

Even cheaper midi systems use "digital" v-control.

 

[ta240]

Perhaps the worst kind of snake oil salesman, hes likable and never says a bad thing about anything…

His background is in sales.
He seems to nearly always be gobsmacked, bowled over, blown away or some other fun term by products. That is probably just what is required to get clicks and is still better than "Don't buy a new amp until you watch this!!!".
I don't have much of an issue with people that don't publish reviews for items they don't like and I'm guessing that most people wouldn't notice anything bad listening to this amp; but when he gushes so much over these products I'm willing to bet quite a few people are buying them to replace completely comparable items they already have.

 

[DesertHawk]

His background is in sales.
He seems to nearly always be gobsmacked, bowled over, blown away or some other fun term by products. That is probably just what is required to get clicks and is still better than "Don't buy a new amp until you watch this!!!".
I don't have much of an issue with people that don't publish reviews for items they don't like and I'm guessing that most people wouldn't notice anything bad listening to this amp; but when he gushes so much over these products I'm willing to bet quite a few people are buying them to replace completely comparable items they already have.

Probably true in general, but given the price point of this amp, most are probably buying it out of need (i.e. "first hifi setup"). I could be wrong but I wouldn't think too many people are swapping sub $500 amps trying to inch out improvement. If you wanted to upgrade from here, you're probably upping your price point.