Denon/Marantz - the end is near

[Andysu]

Magic cat wondering with curiosity what's inside the x8500h that is so atmos special ?

 

[RDoc]

Magic cat wondering with curiosity what's inside the x8500h that is so atmos special ?

View attachment 411762

She's just checking out the box. Apparently, when cats evolved in North Africa around 200,000 years ago, there were a lot of cardboard boxes around to hide and play in.

 

[rah]

Should we dispose of all D&M AVRs?

I'm just curious about this. Why would you dispose of a receiver just because the manufacturer went belly up?

 

[Rick63]

I'm just curious about this. Why would you dispose of a receiver just because the manufacturer went belly up?

Agreed, but I will say this: Due to the uncertainty of the brands future I'd be too afraid to purchase one if I were in the market for a new one, especially one of the expensive ones. I would never feel comfortable about repairs in the future if needed, especially considering the fact that AVRs aren't the most reliable pieces of audio equipment to begin with.

 

[Vacceo]

Considering the quite praised, most recent recent releases from Marantz, I doubt they'll just vanish.

On the other hand I wonder, would actually moving their app to an Android TV environment help making it better?

 

[Bleib]

Considering the quite praised, most recent recent releases from Marantz, I doubt they'll just vanish.

On the other hand I wonder, would actually moving their app to an Android TV environment help making it better?

What good is praise if the sales aren't good enough?

 

[masterhw]

Wouldn't want to be D&M when devices like miniDSP Flex HT are better processors at 1/10th the price. Is their whole AVR line built on having a monopoly on Dolby/DTS decoding? Don't feel compelled to open my wallet knowing I can get better performance for far less elsewhere.

 

[kyuu]

miniDSP is absolutely no threat whatsoever to the AVR/AVP market. They are a rather niche player. And you can't replace an AVR/AVP with something like the Flex HT besides:

• No video processing/switching whatsoever
• Limited inputs
• No decoding, as you already noted
• It's not "1/10th the price", as at $600 you are over halfway to many quite good AVR options that also include amplification

 

[masterhw]

miniDSP is absolutely no threat whatsoever to the AVR/AVP market. They are a rather niche player. And you can't replace an AVR/AVP with something like the Flex HT besides:

• No video processing/switching whatsoever
• Limited inputs
• No decoding, as you already noted
• It's not "1/10th the price", as at $600 you are over halfway to many quite good AVR options that also include amplification

these are true, but hooked up to a TV's eARC (where the TV is the switch) these are less missed features. the 1/10th the price was compared to Marantz AV10, their at present only dedicated AVP. cheaper receivers can use pre-outs but with 15+ dB worse SINAD (and still at least 2x the price).

if the Flex HT/HTx had Dolby and DTS decoding I would have a hard time believing it wouldn't upset the AVR market.

 

[kyuu]

if the Flex HT/HTx had Dolby and DTS decoding I would have a hard time believing it wouldn't upset the AVR market.

No denying that if miniDSP did release something that could decode, handle video, and had enough inputs I'd likely be interested. But they're still a small player with no mindshare, and once they're done incorporating all that extra stuff it's likely that neither their pricing nor their performance would be significantly better than existing players. I'd certainly like to see them (and Wiim) try their hand, though.

 

[Vacceo]

miniDSP is absolutely no threat whatsoever to the AVR/AVP market. They are a rather niche player. And you can't replace an AVR/AVP with something like the Flex HT besides:

• No video processing/switching whatsoever
• Limited inputs
• No decoding, as you already noted
• It's not "1/10th the price", as at $600 you are over halfway to many quite good AVR options that also include amplification

To get rid of the AVR as a device and still have it´s capabilities, you´d need a whole ecosystem change and revamp. Samsung could definetly do it, same for Apple but the catches are a gazillon: proprietary systems nobody likes, lack of integration of sources (turntables, cd´s...), freedom to choose speakers, licenses with room correction (or develop your own, which is not cheap)...

A TV or projector capable of decoding, eq, and sending the digital signal to a switch and from there, to the speakers (with a wired and powered receptor for passive speakers) could probably be doable, but that means developing the whole thing beyond a cool concept.

No denying that if miniDSP did release something that could decode, handle video, and had enough inputs I'd likely be interested. But they're still a small player with no mindshare, and once they're done incorporating all that extra stuff it's likely that neither their pricing nor their performance would be significantly better than existing players. I'd certainly like to see them (and Wiim) try their hand, though.

As above, I think the big issue are the licenses from Dolby and DTS. If the decoding could be integrated in the projector/tv, that´d be a step forward.

 

[GXAlan]

@masterhw
MiniDSP doesn’t even have DLBC and so, the likelihood of DTS:X/Atmos is even lower.

There are companies like Tonewinner, so it’s not a refusal of Dolby or DTS to license tech to small companies.

You can get an Onkyo RZ50 for $700, getting you amplification and full range Dirac and HDMI switching including HDMI CEC. The 15 dB swing in SINAD isn’t audible but the presence of amplifiers and Dirac is…

 

[chelgrian]

To get rid of the AVR as a device and still have it´s capabilities, you´d need a whole ecosystem change and revamp. Samsung could definetly do it, same for Apple but the catches are a gazillon: proprietary systems nobody likes, lack of integration of sources (turntables, cd´s...), freedom to choose speakers, licenses with room correction (or develop your own, which is not cheap)...

A TV or projector capable of decoding, eq, and sending the digital signal to a switch and from there, to the speakers (with a wired and powered receptor for passive speakers) could probably be doable, but that means developing the whole thing beyond a cool concept.


As above, I think the big issue are the licenses from Dolby and DTS. If the decoding could be integrated in the projector/tv, that´d be a step forward.

You do realise that for the most part decoding is already done in the source and what goes across HDMI is a format called Dolby MAT or metadata-enhanced audio transmission

All that is actually being done in the AVR is rendering to speakers for Atmos, previous formats are just going straight through.

HDMI can do PCM8 eliminating the need for MAT for non-immersive formats. However Dolby charge extra to allow PCM8 output rather than MAT thus few sources now have it.

The whole thing is classic double dipping and Ray Dolby would be spinning in his grave.

 

[kyuu]

You can get an Onkyo RZ50 for $700

Are you quoting used prices or some sales deal that has passed? The cheapest I see is a bit over $800 for a refurb, and $1000 on sale.

 

[masterhw]

To get rid of the AVR as a device and still have it´s capabilities, you´d need a whole ecosystem change and revamp. Samsung could definetly do it, same for Apple but the catches are a gazillon: proprietary systems nobody likes, lack of integration of sources (turntables, cd´s...), freedom to choose speakers, licenses with room correction (or develop your own, which is not cheap)...

A TV or projector capable of decoding, eq, and sending the digital signal to a switch and from there, to the speakers (with a wired and powered receptor for passive speakers) could probably be doable, but that means developing the whole thing beyond a cool concept.

I'm not sure it needs all that much rearchitecting. Connect your video sources to the various HDMI inputs on your TV*, and have the sole eARC one going back to this device and only passing through audio. Stay out of the video signal path. For a handful of analog inputs, the miniDSP devices already typically include a couple analog ins that also feed to the Dirac-capable DSP.

The packaging could probably use some work. Throwing in some well implemented TPA325x amplifiers make this a compelling AVR alternative. WiiM has already done this side of things (though not multichannel), and miniDSP brings DSP and high-SINAD DAC implementation. It would seem that every component of a $1000-1200 box delivering near 100dB SINAD end-to-end across a number of channels/power comparable to AVRs has already been worked out independently. The only barrier to putting this together from components today is the multichannel decoding bottleneck.

Re: Dirac DLBC, I see the Flex HT family is running the same SHARC DSP chip the Denons do but at slower speed. if the issue is just having enough processing, this is easily remedied by a second generation product with a faster DSP chip. far from a non-starter.

*true that this would challenge projector-based systems. i'm optimistic with the plethora of HDMI switches and eARC adapters a satisfactory solution exists.

 

[chelgrian]

I'm not sure it needs all that much rearchitecting. Connect your video sources to the various HDMI inputs on your TV*, and have the sole eARC one going back to this device and only passing through audio. Stay out of the video signal path. For a handful of analog inputs, the miniDSP devices already typically include a couple analog ins that also feed to the Dirac-capable DSP.

The packaging could probably use some work. Throwing in some well implemented TPA325x amplifiers and network endpoint make this a compelling AVR alternative. WiiM has already done this side of things (though not multichannel), and miniDSP brings DSP and high-SINAD DAC implementation. It would seem that every component of a $1000-1200 box delivering near 100dB SINAD end-to-end across a number of channels/power comparable to AVRs has already been worked out independently. The only barrier to putting this together from components today is the multichannel decoding bottleneck.

Re: Dirac DLBC, I see the Flex HT family is running the same SHARC DSP chip the Denons do but at slower speed. if the issue is just having enough processing, this is easily remedied by a second generation product with a faster DSP chip. far from a non-starter.

*true that this would challenge projector-based systems. i'm optimistic with the plethora of HDMI switches and eARC adapters a satisfactory solution exists.

It’s not the processing power required it’s the software licenses and compliance fees from Dolby and DTX etc.

I would not be at all surprised if the licenses are cheaper for a fully integrated sound bar for example than for the equivalent electronics but with discrete audio outs.

 

[masterhw]

It’s not the processing power required it’s the software licenses and compliance fees from Dolby and DTX etc.

I would not be at all surprised if the licenses are cheaper for a fully integrated sound bar for example than for the equivalent electronics but with discrete audio outs.

I wouldn't be surprised if that were the case either, but I would happily etransfer $50 to Dolby and DTS if they save me $3000 from getting an AVR with comparable audio performance.

 

[masterhw]

You do realise that for the most part decoding is already done in the source and what goes across HDMI is a format called Dolby MAT or metadata-enhanced audio transmission

All that is actually being done in the AVR is rendering to speakers for Atmos, previous formats are just going straight through.

Is this the case when it displays on-receiver as Dolby Atmos? I am able to adjust Atmos metadata dependent surround settings (such as dynamic range compression), so I would think its doing more than simple rendering.

 

[mhardy6647]

Agreed, but I will say this: Due to the uncertainty of the brands future I'd be too afraid to purchase one if I were in the market for a new one, especially one of the expensive ones. I would never feel comfortable about repairs in the future if needed, especially considering the fact that AVRs aren't the most reliable pieces of audio equipment to begin with.

...  and long-term parts availability is, by and large, abysmal for AVRs.
Indeed, this is an issue for "modern" home entertainment electronics in general -- but AVRs are worse than average in terms of planned obsolescence*, it seems to me (anecdotally), in that regard.

_______________
* of mission critical parts, that is. Obsolescence of some key bit of what the AVR is built to play is baked into the business model for such products.

 

[GXAlan]

Are you quoting used prices or some sales deal that has passed? The cheapest I see is a bit over $800 for a refurb, and $1000 on sale.

https://slickdeals.net/f/17939874-onkyo-tx-rz50-9-2-channel-8k-4k-network-av-receiver-2-year-warranty-700-free-shipping?p=174349929

It was $700 last week for Black Friday, and you will probably see an “After Christmas” sale to match that.

For those interested in learning more about Dolby MAT

A DEEP DIVE INTO DOLBY MAT

Someday, perhaps...however, Dolby MAT is not a final Jeopardy! answer. And no, you won’t need a roll of quarters and liquid Tide, either. In an acronym-obsessed industry, MAT, as in Dolby MAT, stands for Metadata-enhanced Audio Transmission (fortunately, someone in Dolby’s marketing department...

avproedge.com