Denon/Marantz - the end is near (or not)

[ban25]

Would be good to see the development roadmap. They are already kind of late with announcement of some models for X900H series. X800H series was announced in Q3 of 2022 if not mistaken (leaks started in August) and 3800H and 4800H have historically been on 2 year cycle. Even if they consolidate these two models in one (and not duplicate in Marantz line or vice versa), showing them to the market would be a solid proof of life.

I don't think we'll see any X900H models introduced before Q3 of next year, and even then, possibly not until sometime in 2026. There really needs to be a reason to rev them, and the most marginal one I can think of is the introduction of HDMI chipsets capable of supporting 48 Gbps data rates. How many customers who already own an 800 series are really going to trade up to a new model just to run 4K120 in 4:4:4? Or 4K144 in 4:2:0?

I'd personally like to see models that can support multiple stages of DSP, so for instance, a loudness curve can be applied to a Dirac Live corrected output. But that's a pretty niche feature and users like us can just go to Storm Audio for that.

 

[Frank207be]

I seriously doubt the D+ app would do the post processing.
Either your TV does or the soundbar itself would have such a protective filter.

Yes you're right.

Yesterday I tried Star Wars - The Phantom Menace and bass was just the same on DVD disc, Disney+ through eARC TV app and Nvidia Shield TV app.

The reason is probably that each input on the AVR remembers it's room correction preset. Coincidentally the Dirac preset with the weakest bass curve was selected for TV Audio.

 

[Aerith Gainsborough]

There really needs to be a reason to rev them, and the most marginal one I can think of is the introduction of HDMI chipsets capable of supporting 48 Gbps data rates. How many customers who already own an 800 series are really going to trade up to a new model just to run 4K120 in 4:4:4?

For crying out loud, don't scare me like that!

Full HDMI 2.1 support was one of the reasons why I bought this unit.

4K/8K Signal Format AVC-X4800H

manuals.denon.com

According to Denon 4K120Hz 4:4:4 10bit is supported.
It can't do 12 bit but I am not aware of any consumer monitors that can do 12 bit either so that won't be an issue for the foreseeable future.

As it stands right now: there doesn't seem much need to update the line.

 

[Frank207be]

For crying out loud, don't scare me like that!

Full HDMI 2.1 support was one of the reasons why I bought this unit.

4K/8K Signal Format AVC-X4800H

manuals.denon.com

According to Denon 4K120Hz 4:4:4 10bit is supported.
It can't do 12 bit but I am not aware of any consumer monitors that can do 12 bit either so that won't be an issue for the foreseeable future.

As it stands right now: there doesn't seem much need to update the line.

Class D amplification?
Native multichannel music streaming capability? (Atmos and Sony 360 Reality Audio)
Larger OLED display especially for music playback without TV?

 

[Randyman...]

For crying out loud, don't scare me like that!

Full HDMI 2.1 support was one of the reasons why I bought this unit.

4K/8K Signal Format AVC-X4800H

manuals.denon.com

According to Denon 4K120Hz 4:4:4 10bit is supported.
It can't do 12 bit but I am not aware of any consumer monitors that can do 12 bit either so that won't be an issue for the foreseeable future.

As it stands right now: there doesn't seem much need to update the line.

FYI - 1080P/4K BluRay/Streaming (and even the titles in a $100K Kaleidescape) are natively encoded at 4:2:0. Sending anything above that sub-sampling (4:2:2 or even 4:4:4) out of the source unit is only causing more bits through the HDMI cable and not adding any data/quality to the (already encoded) video. Feed the native sub-sampling format of the media through the system, and let the TV/Display do any un-packing to baseband.

 

[Aerith Gainsborough]

Class D amplification?
Native multichannel music streaming capability? (Atmos and Sony 360 Reality Audio)
Larger OLED display especially for music playback without TV?

Class D would be good, didn't Pioneer try that? IIRC my friend has one of those AVRs but it seems they ditched that and went back to A/B.
Wonder why.

Native Atmos streaming: definitely but on it's own that would not be enough to sell a new line.

I don't get the point of a larger OLED display. Considering how AVRs are typically set up, any display would be way to small to be of any practical use. Besides, these days people use their phones with an App to control these devices.

FYI - 1080P/4K BluRay/Streaming (and even the titles in a $100K Kaleidescape) are natively encoded at 4:2:0. Sending anything above that sub-sampling (4:2:2 or even 4:4:4) out of the source unit is only causing more bits through the HDMI cable and not adding any data/quality to the (already encoded) video. Feed the native sub-sampling format of the media through the system, and let the TV/Display do any un-packing to baseband.

My main use is a desktop computer with a TV attached and I plan to upgrade to a 5090 RTX and a 120 Hz TV in the coming years.
Having 4:4:4 Chroma is essential when working with small text on a daily basis.

 

[Frank207be]

Class D would be good, didn't Pioneer try that? IIRC my friend has one of those AVRs but it seems they ditched that and went back to A/B.
Wonder why.

Native Atmos streaming: definitely but on it's own that would not be enough to sell a new line.

I don't get the point of a larger OLED display. Considering how AVRs are typically set up, any display would be way to small to be of any practical use. Besides, these days people use their phones with an App to control these devices.

My main use is a desktop computer with a TV attached and I plan to upgrade to a 5090 RTX and a 120 Hz TV in the coming years.
Having 4:4:4 Chroma is essential when working with small text on a daily basis.

I had the Pioneer SC-LX85 and SC-LX901 both with Class D. They ran cool even with heavy use.

Think HiFi Rose size display. Getting visual confirmation of what's playing without unlocking/tapping your phone/tablet would be welcome.

 

[Randyman...]

My main use is a desktop computer with a TV attached and I plan to upgrade to a 5090 RTX and a 120 Hz TV in the coming years.
Having 4:4:4 Chroma is essential when working with small text on a daily basis.

eARC and a direct connection from PC>Display would alleviate any bottlenecks an AVR might pose in this scenario (a single 48gbps 4:4:4 120Hz source device). And use the AVR to switch all video sources (that are all 4:2:0 anyway). Still future-proof even if the AVR didn't support 4k 120Hz 4:4:4 - but yours gladly does

Also running the AVR/TV as my 4th 4K Desktop monitor over here, but honestly never use it. Text on the 3x Dell Ultrasharp 4K's is hard to beat, and I'm far from a gamer (PC enthusiast but not a gamer - I'm an oddball!). Running Plex on Roku for any local media streaming needs that I used to play directly from my PC's large RAID array, and I prefer Roku's "Lean Back" remote interface over mousing on the PC (which I did for many many years - I really miss Window Media Center's Lean Back interface for this! Once its EPG stopped updating I was done!).

Anyway - I don't believe Denon will go out of business or stop making new AVR's anytime soon. I'm on a 10-year upgrade cycle, and I plan on buying another Denon when the time comes

 

[Aerith Gainsborough]

Think HiFi Rose size display. Getting visual confirmation of what's playing without unlocking/tapping your phone/tablet would be welcome.

Having the entire front of the AVR be a touch screen and doing away with the flap and the buttons.
A funky idea that I am digging.

Would probably be expensive though.

eARC and a direct connection from PC>Display would alleviate any bottlenecks an AVR might pose in this scenario (a single 48gbps 4:4:4 120Hz source device).

Yop, that's how I currently run a 4K60 4:4:4 setup with my 3080 RTX and my ol' Yammy that can't even do eARC, let alone HDMI 2.0.
I also bought a 4K BD player that has 2 HDMI outs, one for sound and one for video.

I live in a small one-room apartment, so no space for a TV and a monitor. I opted for a wall-mounted 55" screen back in 2018 that I use at 100% scaling. It's like having an interactive wall in front of you (so much screen real estate!) and gaming in fullscreen is very immersive.

My vision isn't the greatest even with glasses, so the pixel density of ~1080p @ 27" doesn't bother me.

Having everything go through the AVR just simplifies the cabling setup.

 

[Randyman...]

Having everything go through the AVR just simplifies the cabling setup.

Always the goal for sure! The X3800h automatically solved this for me as I actually upgraded for its iOS editable Audyssey and the 4-Discrete sub outs. Its 4K HDMI switching was a slightly unnecessary side-bonus

I will say, with modern eARC and CEC, input switching is surprisingly simple, and just works in my setup when using any of the TV's built-in apps. I use the Roku remote for everything but watching DirecTV - and I don't ever have to manually change inputs. This is how CEC should have worked 10 years ago! This is why Harmony went the way of the Dodo. I don't believe Denon will follow that fate.

 

[ban25]

For crying out loud, don't scare me like that!

Full HDMI 2.1 support was one of the reasons why I bought this unit.

4K/8K Signal Format AVC-X4800H

manuals.denon.com

According to Denon 4K120Hz 4:4:4 10bit is supported.
It can't do 12 bit but I am not aware of any consumer monitors that can do 12 bit either so that won't be an issue for the foreseeable future.

As it stands right now: there doesn't seem much need to update the line.

You're right. 12 bit or 144 Hz refresh are the reasons for more bandwidth, but very niche use-cases regardless. IIRC, the PS5 Pro is still capped at 32 Gbps internally, and the Xbox Series X at 40 Gbps.

 

[Randyman...]

You're right. 12 bit or 144 Hz refresh are the reasons for more bandwidth, but very niche use-cases regardless. IIRC, the PS5 Pro is still capped at 32 Gbps internally, and the Xbox Series X at 40 Gbps.

A simple curiosity - Do gaming consoles that do 120hz+ and 4K also put out 4:4:4 (is the engine's final output rendered at 4:4:4, or less?)? @Aerith Gainsborough's PC scenario could.

 

[GXAlan]

Class D would be good, didn't Pioneer try that? IIRC my friend has one of those AVRs but it seems they ditched that and went back to A/B.
Wonder why.

They did. Samsung and Pioneer used ICE power amps and it was great. Any load dependency could be corrected with Pioneers MCACC correction. They went though several generations, dropping ICEpower for their own in-house Class D designs based upon TI-chips.

However, Pioneer Home Entertainment exited the business.

Pioneer's exit from stereo components marks end of era

Japan, China, India and Southeast Asia news and expert analysis published by Nikkei, an award-winning independent provider of quality journalism.

asia.nikkei.com

They sold the division to Onkyo which then went bankrupt and sold their home AV division to Sharp and VOXX. Sharp wasn’t Sharp either. It was acquired by Foxconn.

So, Pioneer, one of the elite of home theater companies which had speakers, AV and HiFi, and displays went out of business “as we know it as consumers.” Sharp, which had audiophile 1-bit products and was one of the pioneers of the LCD flat panel TVs also went under.

The same could happen to Denon and Marantz!

Under the current management, they have said it is more cost effective to produce class AB amplifiers than equivalently performing class D ones.

Just look at these wonder-products from Fosi. Even the Fosi V3 at $90 for 2 channel, would be $450 worth of amplification for 10 channels…

 

[Randyman...]

Isn't Pioneer re-entering the TV market? Oh - actually looks like TCL is OEM'ing them

 

[GXAlan]

Isn't Pioneer re-entering the TV market?

It’s not the same engineering team. They are TCL TV’s with Pioneer badging. Similar to today’s “Polaroid” or “Kodak” digital cameras.

 

[Randyman...]

It’s not the same engineering team. They are TCL TV’s with Pioneer badging. Similar to today’s “Polaroid” or “Kodak” digital cameras.

Heard about this on a podcast, and they didn't mention the TCL part. Found that after a quick Google search a moment ago (edited before I saw your reply!).

 

[GXAlan]

Heard about this on a podcast, and they didn't mention the TCL part. Found that after a quick Google search a moment ago (edited before I saw your reply!).

No worries. But if Pioneer can die, so can Denon.

Sony and Yamaha are more diversified and are less likely to die completely as long as the divisions are profitable. Some people would argue that Pioneer never died. They still do a lot of OEM factory car audio and aftermarket car audio and produce things like lidar sensors, but almost none of the Pioneer non-car audio products you can buy in the store as a consumer are actually Pioneer products. (DJ and home).

Heck, Denon and Marantz DJ/Professional line are not part of Denon/Marantz home audio…

There are companies that survive off boutique sales like Luxman, Linn, Naim, etc. I can see D&M doing that, but who knows?

 

[Petrushka]

No worries. But if Pioneer can die, so can Denon.

Sony and Yamaha are more diversified and are less likely to die completely as long as the divisions are profitable. Some people would argue that Pioneer never died. They still do a lot of OEM factory car audio and aftermarket car audio and produce things like lidar sensors, but almost none of the Pioneer non-car audio products you can buy in the store as a consumer are actually Pioneer products. (DJ and home).

Heck, Denon and Marantz DJ/Professional line are not part of Denon/Marantz home audio…

There are companies that survive off boutique sales like Luxman, Linn, Naim, etc. I can see D&M doing that, but who knows?

AR, KLH, Advent, Dynaco, Fisher, Realistic, Phase Linear, Harmon Kardon, Scott, Sansui, Teak, Phillips, Roberts, Akai, Boston.

If they exist at all, it’s just as badges.

 

[ban25]

A simple curiosity - Do gaming consoles that do 120hz+ and 4K also put out 4:4:4 (is the engine's final output rendered at 4:4:4, or less?)? @Aerith Gainsborough's PC scenario could.

It's 4:2:2 on the PS5 (both Pro and base model) and 4:4:4 on the Xbox Series X. I think you may be able to get 4:4:4 on the PS5 in 60 Hz mode, but that would require a degree of settings swapping both in the console and (at least for me) on the TV.

 

[abdo123]

It's 4:2:2 on the PS5 (both Pro and base model) and 4:4:4 on the Xbox Series X. I think you may be able to get 4:4:4 on the PS5 in 60 Hz mode, but that would require a degree of settings swapping both in the console and (at least for me) on the TV.

i thought the PS5 didn't use Dolby Vision or 12bit output. why does it not support 4:4:4 ?