Their standard are the published specs, and as I wrote above, even with the "bad" cap the unit fulfills them (IMO).
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Denon AVR-X6700H Home Theater AVR Review
- Thread starter amirm
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Week to two weeks.
I'm pretty sure it's not even only the analog parts that contribute to the bad score.. I've said it before, so I'll say it again: look at the stopband attenuation.. -60dB? Really (the X4700 did -80dB) ? How on earth did they manage that on a 32 bit AKM DAC? None of the 32 AKM DAC's have a reconstruction filter that crappy. There must be more to it!
Actually, the only reason the analog parts of those AVR's are so complicated is because they still have analog inputs and the purists still want "pure direct" throughput to the amps. There really is no need to analog volume control chips if you keep it all digital. Would also reduce the possibility of EMI significantly since the analog paths are shorter. For all the advanced features analog is digitized anyway, so that "pure direct" mode is actually sacrificing a whole lot. In the end, you could actually end up with a much better SINAD if one would remove that crap and digitize the analog stuff as fast as possible, and keep the DA section as simple as needed for good performance.
Obviously the pure-direct zealots would hate this
In any case, I'll never buy anything from Marantz or Denon ever again. I have SR6010.. The wifi is unusable, the volume control on the device does not work anymore (which happened to me on an older Marantz amp exactly the same.. they did not improve anything in over 20 years). And one of the main channels is broken, which I only noticed after more than two years since I've always used an external amp, so it had been from the start. Feature wise it really is a nice device though.
What specs? They really spec almost nothing..
Those AV receiver are really in a sad place imho. Where are the SMPS'es? Where are the Class D amps? At least Pioneer is trying.. not that I would buy that. It's not even that those things make it necessarily better, but it shows that the most important thing those companies want, is to put more marketing stickers on their products. 8K.. HDMI 2.1, a gazillion amps.. ever more 3D audio standards.. Just give us a decent SINAD as well.. And no, it's not about this being audible or not. If one can expect 8K video support, I can also expect top notch audio performance... meaning 100+ SINAD for the DAC, 90+ SINAD for the Amp.. Sounds only fair to me..
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Amir, when you do the next one, 3X00 or the 8500, please kindly do a test to confirm if the "CD" input not digitized is real and unconditional upon the speaker settings, or it is the same with the other analog input, but get digitized only if subwoofers are used, left/right speakers set to "small", and/or when Audyssey is selected "On", when in stereo mode. According to the info in the SMs, the CD input should work exactly the same as the other analog inputs.
This is confusing because if according to D+M, it does not get digitized if in direct or pure direct mode. Yet you tests show direct or stereo didn't matter, that's why I suspect that in stereo mode, may be it didn't get digitized in your tests because you had the left/right set to large and subwoofer "none".
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I would like to have >100 dB SINAD across the board too for my AVR, but looking at the available options in the <$5,000 range, I am satisfy with my Denon AVR. Every time Amir updated the ranking chart (yes I know it is based on just one test) I would focus on the top 10, re-read some of the reviews to check the other tests such as IMD, linearity, 32 tones etc., and then remind myself mine would measure practically as good as the $4,999 AVP (separates right?).
In the top 10, exactly half of them are AVPs or integrated amp with processing capability, and the other half are AVRs. If the 6700 was from the later production run that has the regular cap, my bet would be that AVRs would be in the majority of the top 10 as it would likely displaced the Lyngdorf.
So I am not sad about my AVR, and I don't think I am the only one.I don't think they knew the replacement capacitor degraded performance until I ran my tests and they verified the same. It was a straight part substitution which would be common for a capacitor (being a generic part). There is something seriously out of spec with the cap to cause this problem though.
My hope is that from here on companies run the same tests I do so that they catch the problems themselves, rather than me.
And my hope is, they would send you samples to measure before launch. If I were D+M, or Yamaha (just to name the big two) I would do it because it never hurt to consult an independent lab in case their own QA/QC missed something that can hurt after the fact. I would, however, have you signed a NDA on the results until the final product is launched, assuming the final product has not been changed in any way, otherwise I would send you a sample of the final product and obviously then you can publish the test results on that sample unit. I know that's not going to happen..
The 4500 I'm running right now (I sent back the 6700) reaches 122 degrees Fahrenheit with a digital thermometer sitting on top of it. I'm pretty sure that 6700 rain a lot hotter. What temperature did you get when you ran the 6700?
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I'm using analog CD inputs for my 6000N Play and Audyssey is active unless I switch to Direct or Pure Direct. Not sure if the fact that Audyssey is active means its digitized but I recall someone making that statement along the way...... My current set up does NOT have subs in the loop.
An $85 Aircom goes a long way to reduce heat. My X4700 in pre-amp mode without the fan hasn't gotten overly hot yet but I'm in a townhouse so I don't play things overly loud, however I am also running LR channels in Large without a sub.
If Audyssey is on it has to have been digitized. That's why I am suspecting that in Stereo mode, CD input or other analog input, it will get routed through the ADC/DSP/DAC path if: a) speakers set to small, subwoofer on and/or Audyssey is "on". I forgot to mention Audyssey in my earlier post but I did include in it my much earlier post.
Thank you for mentioning it so now I can probably edit it.In case there are doubters among us.If Audyssey is on it has to have been digitized. That's why I am suspecting that in Stereo mode, CD input or other analog input, it will get routed through the ADC/DSP/DAC path if: a) speakers set to small, subwoofer on and/or Audyssey is "on". I forgot to mention Audyssey in my earlier post but I did include in it my much earlier post.
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I just canceled my order for an X3700H after waiting almost a month with no update. I will continue to use my old receiver until I start seeing some better reviews for these apparently premium products. Maybe next year will be better, or maybe not. I don't think this year, with everything that's happening, is a good time to buy a new model anything, unless it's a ventilator!
From a practical perspective I don't see anything wrong with the X4700 results. At least downmix bug won't apply to my uses, does it your? If not, what other concerns do you have? Guess it's hard to know on the capacitor issue, but I think my X4700 was an early enough build it isn't worrisome.
Next year will usually always be better if you can wait in general. But then there will always be the next thing as well.
Truth be told, a more modest budget can fulfill my needs. I was willing to pay for a premium product with the expectation that it would have good resale the next time I go for an upgrade. As it is I can see the buyer questions about these units in years to come... "Is that the model with the downmix bug?", "Is that the model with the crappy caps?", "Is that the model with the ****** DACs?", etc. I mean, who here of you would buy a used NAD AVR knowing what we now know? AND if Denon actually improve the quality of their products in the next couple of years it will only serve to make this generation of models look bad in comparison. The bottom line though is that I'm disappointed in Denon and now don't really feel like I want one of their products. When I placed the order for the X3700H a month ago I was feeling good about the brand. Now, not so much.
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Yes, nobody dares step out of line. With DAC's we've now finally seen that you can make very good products for comparably little money. With AVR it’s not going to be so easy. There are huge sums of licensing money involved for all of those nice stickers. Also the processing demands are quite daunting. It’s not something a small company can easily manage. And thus we will be bludgeoned by sub-par products for the next foreseeable future.
Worst thing is that a major part of the the solution could be so easy: just give us some digital outputs so we can add our own DAC’s.. sadly licensing prevents this from ever happening
I would even love to see a digital output for stereo only.. but nowadays any digital output is removed (except for HDMI)WADR, have you listened to a movie on a 15 yr old AVR lately?Yes, nobody dares step out of line. With DAC's we've now finally seen that you can make very good products for comparably little money. With AVR it’s not going to be so easy. There are huge sums of licensing money involved for all of those nice stickers. Also the processing demands are quite daunting. It’s not something a small company can easily manage. And thus we will be bludgeoned by sub-par products for the next foreseeable future.
Worst thing is that a major part of the the solution could be so easy: just give us some digital outputs so we can add our own DAC’s.. sadly licensing prevents this from ever happening
I’m obviously laying it on a little thick. Don’t get me wrong, all the new technology is fantastic and I’m the first to admit it. And surely things have improved the last 15 years, but all that does not negate the argument: it could actually have been even better, and for the price, it should be better!
Castortroy3
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I can honestly say that the difference between my 3700 and my 15 year old Yamaha Rx V2200 sounds no different (with audessey off). Both in 5.2.0. Add in room correction and the bells and whistles. Of technology and it was worth the update. The Yamaha was also the Same price 15 years ago (part of the problem) and weighed 65lbs.
IMO there is a few problems here but to move away from DM because of this is moving to just another unknown. It's more that there is information about DM and less information on other brands (discussed right now). It doesn't mean the same issues are not persistent in most AVRs. At least DM is communicating. This is again why if I were Denon I would flood the internet with tests of other products so when your comparing against brands you have some hits and misses with engineering. Of course you expect better performance with better budget but that may not be the case with more features more problems. Of course the 6700 was more about lack of supply problems.
