Denon AVR-X4800H AVR Review

[techsamurai]

Statement about Dirac ART by Oliver Kriete (D&M product manager Europe) in the X4800H Masimo Consumer Training Video:

"That's something we also are looking into. So as that we are going to have the bass control somewhere in 2024. Maybe we are already able to add ART at that time as well. But it's nothing written in stone yet."

I already posted this in the "Denon AVR-X4800H released for sale" thread (post #159).

Do we know how much the ART license is going to cost and what sort of equipment it will need?

 

[Vovgan]

At 82.5 V with input at 0 dBFS (such as in Amir's test), you should expect 2 Vrms not peak, peak will be 2.828 V. With just 2 Vrms, your NAD28 should output 500 W, if it is not voltage limited. So the NAD amp will be clipping anyway if you push it that hard. Seems like you enjoy listening at reference level?

Do you use the amp assign function to disconnect the front left and right channel? If you do, at 2 V the X6500H should be able to achieve >95 dB SINAD, if not, expect around 75-76 dB that's still well below the threshold of audibility, and again at that level the NAD amp would have well pass it's clipping point.

right so that's why I never go above volume 80. not sure if I even know what clipping sounds like. my crossover setting in Denon is 80 Hz so everything below that that has the most energy goes to a pair of 1kW subs not to NAD amp, so I don't think at volume 80 I ever experience clipping. Unfortunately my Denon 6500 doesn't have an amp disconnect feature

 

[Everett T]

right so that's why I never go above volume 80. not sure if I even know what clipping sounds like. my crossover setting in Denon is 80 Hz so everything below that that has the most energy goes to a pair of 1kW subs not to NAD amp, so I don't think at volume 80 I ever experience clipping. Unfortunately my Denon 6500 doesn't have an amp disconnect feature

Surprisingly, to many, it's above 100hz to about 1500hz where there is a tremendous amount of energy, that's why so many "compromised" center channels sound like garbage.

 

[Dj7675]

Do we know how much the ART license is going to cost and what sort of equipment it will need?

The only one to set pricing is Stormaudio. $299 for those that have purchased prior to Jan 1 2023 and included in the purchase price after Jan 1 2023. Not sure what you mean by equipment needed. If the AVR or Processor is capable and the brand chooses to implement it, there shouldn't be any other equipment needed. The $299 cost Stormaudio is charging its customers for it may or may not mean anything as pricing seems to vary.

 

[SorenTyson]

Statement about Dirac ART by Oliver Kriete (D&M product manager Europe) in the X4800H Masimo Consumer Training Video:

"That's something we also are looking into. So as that we are going to have the bass control somewhere in 2024. Maybe we are already able to add ART at that time as well. But it's nothing written in stone yet."

I already posted this in the "Denon AVR-X4800H released for sale" thread (post #159).

Thanks for sharing. That statement is non committing enough for me to think that ART will not be available. Probably have to upgrade hardware at that time to get it. They want to provide incentives for us to upgrade

 

[peng]

The only one to set pricing is Stormaudio. $299 for those that have purchased prior to Jan 1 2023 and included in the purchase price after Jan 1 2023. Not sure what you mean by equipment needed. If the AVR or Processor is capable and the brand chooses to implement it, there shouldn't be any other equipment needed. The $299 cost Stormaudio is charging its customers for it may or may not mean anything as pricing seems to vary.

I guess for ART to work well, the secondary speakers will have to be full range capable right?

 

[Dj7675]

I guess for ART to work well, the secondary speakers will have to be full range capable right?

On everything I have seen and read, they are saying no, full range are not required. The Demo they used at the last show used a 5.1 system with 2 subs, full range mains and what I would consider normal surrounds. I believe they were Perlisten speakers. I would have to assume though that the more capable all the speakers the better they should be able be used by ART. Look forward to seeing how it all works and sounds once released.

 

[Everett T]

On everything I have seen and read, they are saying no, full range are not required. The Demo they used at the last show used a 5.1 system with 2 subs, full range mains and what I would consider normal surrounds. I believe they were Perlisten speakers. I would have to assume though that the more capable all the speakers the better they should be able be used by ART. Look forward to seeing how it all works and sounds once released.

That was my understanding and multiple subs is the minimum requirements for effectiveness.

 

[Vacceo]

On everything I have seen and read, they are saying no, full range are not required. The Demo they used at the last show used a 5.1 system with 2 subs, full range mains and what I would consider normal surrounds. I believe they were Perlisten speakers. I would have to assume though that the more capable all the speakers the better they should be able be used by ART. Look forward to seeing how it all works and sounds once released.

Unless the Perlistens were towers, the monitors are meant to reach 80 hz, so far from full range. If it worked on the set as intended, definetly there is no need to have full range speakers on the sides, rears of height speakers.

 

[Music707]

That was my understanding and multiple subs is the minimum is the minimum requirements for effectiveness.

Nilo Ericsson (Dirac Product Manager) stated that already Stereo users with just two main speakers and no subs can benefit from Dirac ART.

 

[Everett T]

Nilo Ericsson (Dirac Product Manager) stated that already Stereo users with just two main speakers and no subs can benefit from Dirac ART.

I'm not doubting that, I was just relying what has been discussed as the minimum for effectiveness relating to HT. I'm have no doubt that they can show an improvement over a 2ch system base measurement. Just how much and wasn't the goal intended for multichannel?

 

[Dj7675]

Unless the Perlistens were towers, the monitors are meant to reach 80 hz, so far from full range. If it worked on the set as intended, definetly there is no need to have full range speakers on the sides, rears of height speakers.

The L/R were towers.

I think there are a few videos around on the demo. I thought it would have been a good opportunity to show measurements of no EQ, Dirac with DLBC, and Dirac with ART. But I’m sure there will be lots of those kind of measurements once released.

 

[ArturoKiwi]

The 4800 in preout mode disengage the amps, but they are still on?
Is there an avr that turn the amps of when in preout mode?

 

[OverTheAir]

I thought it would have been a good opportunity to show measurements of no EQ, Dirac with DLBC, and Dirac with ART.

Perhaps the link below to Dirac comparing no EQ, Dirac Live, Dirac Live+Bass Control (DLBC) and then Dirac Live ART (DLART) might address some of what you are after?

As an aside, the 3800, 4800 and A1H AVR's all seem to have the same Analog Devices ADSP-21593 so if the A1H supports DLART then it seems possible that the 3800 and 4800 might also be capable of supporting DLART from an adequate processing power capability as a simple first order guess. I doubt Dirac would have any commercial issues about supporting DLART on the lower level machines, since its just more licensing money that flows directly to them. It would just be whether Denon wants to do so, or maintain some commercial differentiation between the different models.

Comparison of Dirac modes

 

[Music707]

Perhaps the link below to Dirac comparing no EQ, Dirac Live, Dirac Live+Bass Control (DLBC) and then Dirac Live ART (DLART) might address some of what you are after?

As an aside, the 3800, 4800 and A1H AVR's all seem to have the same Analog Devices ADSP-21593 so if the A1H supports DLART then it seems possible that the 3800 and 4800 might also be capable of supporting DLART from an adequate processing power capability as a simple first order guess. I doubt Dirac would have any commercial issues about supporting DLART on the lower level machines, since its just more licensing money that flows directly to them. It would just be whether Denon wants to do so, or maintain some commercial differentiation between the different models.

Comparison of Dirac modes

I agree. Just for a more complete view let me add that business might even overrule what D&M might prefer to do. Just a hypothetical example: Following your post, let us assume that D&M wants to keep DL ART to the A1H and the AV10 (the two flagships). Let us assume further that Onkyo/Pioneer/Integra, NAD, Monolith and others start offering DL ART on AVRs/AVPs at considerably lower price points. In order not to lose sales to the competition D&M might then offer DL ART for AVR/s below their flagship level, e. g. the 4800. Of course, much will depend on the overall attactiveness of DL ART on the market.

 

[OverTheAir]

I agree. Just for a more complete view let me add that business might even overrule what D&M might prefer to do. Just a hypothetical example: Following your post, let us assume that D&M wants to keep DL ART to the A1H and the AV10 (the two flagships). Let us assume further that Onkyo/Pioneer/Integra, NAD, Monolith and others start offering DL ART on AVRs/AVPs at considerably lower price points. In order not to lose sales to the competition D&M might then offer DL ART for AVR/s below their flagship level, e. g. the 4800. Of course, much will depend on the overall attactiveness of DL ART on the market.

The Monolith HTP-1 is about to start shipping again based on the recent AVNirvana YT interview. It will either ship with, or receive a firmware update relatively soon afterwards for DTS-X Pro and from the same interview it seems like there is a possibility for offering DLART, perhaps as soon as 4Q23. The video suggested it might have a new price point at $4200-$4300. It seems it will still not have HDMI 2.1, although this wasn't discussed in the latest interview. So that sets a price point for comparison to pre-pros or to AVRs after adding the cost of external amps and cost of DLBC/DLART to the HTP-1. AVRs like the 4800 and 6800 are at much lower price points than a HTP-1 + external amps solution, so probably only Onkyo/Pioneer/Integra AVRs are likely to provide price competition at this level. NAD seems an outside chance as it would probably need a new DSP board and greater channel count to be competitive beyond 7.1.4. Sony and Yamaha don't seem likely candidates for Dirac but I suppose that could change.

 

[dlaloum]

That's your opinion, and as expected you have strong opinions. Trying tell Benchmark that!! They most certainly has a different opinion.
By the way, you mentioned more than once that "the pro "standard" is 1.4V and the consumer standard is 0.7V", is that a fact that there is a standard that all pro amps follow, link please?

I know your Crown amp has the 1.4/0.7 V spec but I know other pro amps, for example, QSC's have gains different than yours though they are probably not lower than 29 dB.

Perhaps I should have worded that as " convention " rather than standard...

The line level wiki provides the details and history

Line level - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Also covered here:

Understanding the Types of Audio Signal Levels - The Broadcast Bridge - Connecting IT to Broadcast

Most novice videographers can plug a microphone into a mic jack and get a reasonably good audio signal. However, at times, many get noise, distortion or an unusably low audio level. That is usually caused by mismatch in audio connection types.

www.thebroadcastbridge.com

 

[dlaloum]

Do we know how much the ART license is going to cost and what sort of equipment it will need?

We know from Dirac statements that if the hardware ( CPU/ram ) can handle DLBC, then it can handle DLART.

The storm audio AVP is quad processor, but it may be able to run on appropriately specced dual processor setups.

 

[Dj7675]

Perhaps the link below to Dirac comparing no EQ, Dirac Live, Dirac Live+Bass Control (DLBC) and then Dirac Live ART (DLART) might address some of what you are after?

As an aside, the 3800, 4800 and A1H AVR's all seem to have the same Analog Devices ADSP-21593 so if the A1H supports DLART then it seems possible that the 3800 and 4800 might also be capable of supporting DLART from an adequate processing power capability as a simple first order guess. I doubt Dirac would have any commercial issues about supporting DLART on the lower level machines, since its just more licensing money that flows directly to them. It would just be whether Denon wants to do so, or maintain some commercial differentiation between the different models.

Comparison of Dirac modes

I have read that. Thanks for the link and reminder. It is a good read. It would have been nice to show some measurements of the room they did their demo in.

We know from Dirac statements that if the hardware ( CPU/ram ) can handle DLBC, then it can handle DLART.

The storm audio AVP is quad processor, but it may be able to run on appropriately specced dual processor setups.

I don’t recall it being a definitive answer. I believe there were some qualifiers but if I am remembering correctly was not a 100% definitive. If I recall it was something like “should” and ART required something like 20% more cpu power. With it not 100% working and ready on any platform I think it is too soon to know much.

 

[dlaloum]

I have read that. Thanks for the link and reminder. It is a good read. It would have been nice to show some measurements of the room they did their demo in.

I don’t recall it being a definitive answer. I believe there were some qualifiers but if I am remembering correctly was not a 100% definitive. If I recall it was something like “should” and ART required something like 20% more cpu power. With it not 100% working and ready on any platform I think it is too soon to know much.

Indeed... and CPU capabilities increase year to year quite quickly .... even on pin compatible chips... so the level of processing power available 10 years ago on flagship models, is now available on midrange / mass market models...

But from what little information we have, the x3800 and x4800 should be able to handle DLART.

But the manufacturer must first invest the time and effort to enable the integration.

I would bet that lower models would be able to handle ART in hardware terms, but it will never be made available.