Denon AVR-X4700H is better than Arcam AVR20

[anish]

I follow the idea from this thread with some adaptation. I take two measurements with desired crossover enabled (lets say 80Hz); 1. Disconnect subwoofer cable and measure L+R (Channel 1+2 in REW HDMI) and then 2. Disconnect Mains cable (connect subwoofer) and take a measurement (You can use LFE channel if you don't want to disconnect mains wires, but make sure to adjust the subwoofer level by -4dB for L+R or -10dB for single channel in next step). Now that you have two measurements, use the alignment tool as described in above link. The 'aligned sum' shows predicted response. I would measure the actual response once the subwoofer delay/distance is adjusted in the AVR. If you don't get a smooth summation around crossover, you'll have to try another crossover frequency. Unfortunately its manual work for Denon but the Dirac software is interactive in 'Upmix' mode for Arcam. For multi sub alignment I use MSO, even if you don't use the tool, there is a lot to read and learn in tutorial session. (NB. there is max 6 meter limit between shortest and furthest speaker distance in Denon. So if the dsp delay for sub is very high, you will have to tweak the shortest speaker - most likely surround distance to align LCR timing correctly. No such limitations in Dirac, it takes sub as 0ms reference and delays all other speakers as required)

 

[FrantzM]

W

Welcome @anish! to the Forum.
You're a gentleperson. Speaking for myself, I would not have post the pictures and would have put @adidas2205 on my ignore list...

 

[duelistgamer]

Thanks for feedback and kind words. It is really hard to go wrong with Denon.

Does Denon's in-receiver calibration run well or is a custom curve required like with the multi-EQ app or audyssey pro?

 

[CMOT]

Do you have a good guide on how to phase align mains and subs?

I’ve been looking for that for quite sometime, preferably including multiple subs too!

Fiddle with positions of subs until you like the way it sounds from your listening position? The problem is that the mains and subs will only be in phase for a very small region of space. But anytime you move and the movement is different relative to your mains and subs, you change the relative phases.... Unless you have the subs under (or on top of???) your mains...

 

[anish]

Does Denon's in-receiver calibration run well or is a custom curve required like with the multi-EQ app or audyssey pro?

In receiver calibration has limited flexibility, i.e. you can only choose between 'Reference' and 'Flat' curve. Both curves doesn't follow the much discussed Low -high frequency (Harmon) slope; i.e. just flat with a high frequency roll off. Another issue is that Reference adds a 'BBC dip' at midrange (around 1K), there is no way to remove it.

In App has several advantages
1. Remove the 'BBC dip'
2. Restrict the correction frequency limit (curtain in Dirac language)
3. Edit target curve, don't use app to edit as its tedious. There is a simple method as summarised here
4. You can copy and create many configs and push to the receiver as needed (2020 models can keep two presets in receiver)

 

[adidas2205]

Do you have a good guide on how to phase align mains and subs?

I’ve been looking for that for quite sometime, preferably including multiple subs too!

Yes, there is. Write to your personal account and I will send them to you. Remember to adjust only the bass better. The treble and midrange should play back your speakers. By the way, they differ in price. I'll tell you a secret. Not always more expensive is better. ))) and so good speakers, if you find them, play excellent mid and high frequencies. And can I find out if you came to HI FI for a long time? What did you do when about 10 years ago the receivers were without acoustic adjustments? Or were you on a submarine at the time?

 

[adidas2205]

Guys I'm not kidding think about it professionals never adjust the mid and high frequencies. Since a good acoustic should sound itself. Imeno so dirac having understood this sdedal adjustment only on bass. And takes money from everyone for it.

 

[adidas2205]

I once again confirm that the ARCAM AVR10 (with the latest firmware 1.46) sounds much more interesting than the DENON 3700 in movies or in stereo. And in stereo, it's very good. The sound is similar to analog sound. Which was never the case in ARCAM. I really like it. Very collected bass on the subwoofer (which is not present in DENON) very readable and legible central channel (which is not present in DENON). The ability to connect BI-AMPING in the system as I have 5.1.4 (DENON can not do this). In general, I advise you. But! AIRPLAY sounds better on DENON and that's a fact!

 

[duelistgamer]

In receiver calibration has limited flexibility, i.e. you can only choose between 'Reference' and 'Flat' curve. Both curves doesn't follow the much discussed Low -high frequency (Harmon) slope; i.e. just flat with a high frequency roll off. Another issue is that Reference adds a 'BBC dip' at midrange (around 1K), there is no way to remove it.

In App has several advantages
1. Remove the 'BBC dip'
2. Restrict the correction frequency limit (curtain in Dirac language)
3. Edit target curve, don't use app to edit as its tedious. There is a simple method as summarised here
4. You can copy and create many configs and push to the receiver as needed (2020 models can keep two presets in receiver)

How does it work? Do you run the calibration using the receiver's mic first and then upload a new target profile to the receiver?

 

[amper42]

I once again confirm that the ARCAM AVR10 (with the latest firmware 1.46) sounds much more interesting than the DENON 3700 in movies or in stereo. And in stereo, it's very good. The sound is similar to analog sound. Which was never the case in ARCAM. I really like it. Very collected bass on the subwoofer (which is not present in DENON) very readable and legible central channel (which is not present in DENON). The ability to connect BI-AMPING in the system as I have 5.1.4 (DENON can not do this). In general, I advise you. But! AIRPLAY sounds better on DENON and that's a fact!

See pages 59 and 62 of the manual for Denon 3700 Bi-amp instructions.

 

[adidas2205]

See pages 59 and 62 of the manual for Denon 3700 Bi-amp instructions.

View attachment 122442

Unfortunately, in DENON, if ATMOS 4 speakers are connected, BI-AMPING connection is not possible. Not everyone knows about it. Just like I did when I bought the DENON 3700

 

[anish]

How does it work? Do you run the calibration using the receiver's mic first and then upload a new target profile to the receiver?

Connect the mic to receiver, then initiate calibration from the app. When calibration done from receiver, raw measurement data is not stored (only the resulting filters are stored), so not possible to upload to app from receiver.

 

[Beershaun]

Maybe you're right. But let me explain something. Yes, the ARKAM buzzes as soon as you buy it, and it goes away. It will take about 20 days of use. But why don't you say that DENON stinks, and it stinks really bad for 14 days for sure. ARKAM doesn't have that. And it will warm up with any use a little more than ARCAM since it is smaller in size. I didn't use room correction, but listened as is. And I connected it via BI-AMPING in the 5.1.4 system, which DENON can't do. I advise you to try connecting the front speakers via bi amping. Listen to your recordings and movies at a volume of about 60 on both receivers. And see how your subwoofer and center channel sounds. In my case, there is a difference. Connect HD STEREO or multi-channel music. The difference is big in favor of ARKAM. Try removing the corrections on both receivers. And try to compare them together. If you have them in the same room. And let the ARCHES warm up. And please share. And so we are all different, and we also like different things. But I often watch movies. I wanted to move to DENON, but it didn't work out. Yes, I forgot to say AIRPLAY 2 Internet radio and streaming really sounds better on DENON. I'll tell you a secret. Why DIRAC made the bass adjustment. Yes, that's why all these adjustments are only needed for the bass and they really spoil the good highs. And they spoil the way the acoustics should sound. And the adjustment is required more in the low frequencies. Therefore, it is better without adjustment. Or you need to be able to do it correctly by hand. Without touching the middle and high ones. This is for any sound correction firm.

Wow...just wow. You are super aggressive and combative in your writing. Bullying the OP demanding that they do your bidding. I se classic signs of a confidence artist attempting to overwhelm their mark with feelings of self doubt in order to control them and bend them to your will. I suggest the OP quickly ignore this person and remove them from their feed.

I fully expect the next response from this person will be an aggressive attack on me telling me I know nothing and to mind my own business as a way to try and separate the OP from their protective “herd” of people so they can maintain control over them without interference.

 

[adidas2205]

Wow...just wow. You are super aggressive and combative in your writing. Bullying the OP demanding that they do your bidding. I se classic signs of a confidence artist attempting to overwhelm their mark with feelings of self doubt in order to control them and bend them to your will. I suggest the OP quickly ignore this person and remove them from their feed.

I fully expect the next response from this person will be an aggressive attack on me telling me I know nothing and to mind my own business as a way to try and separate the OP from their protective “herd” of people so they can maintain control over them without interference.

Wow.... I see the number of people who, after my explanations that Arcam completely outplays Denon, want to ban me. Well, banite - this is what cowards do) I only asked the person to tell about the advantages of arkam after using it. And believe me, they are there and there are a lot of them, even if he did not like his sound. I was very upset when I read this forum and bought a Denon and was just shocked by what I got))))

 

[valerianf]

I never had Denon or Arcam.
But I am ready to believe somebody that tell me that one is sounding better than the other.
It need to be tested with an HiRes file.
Could you please try Rhye Blood Remixed album track Feell your Weight (Poolside remix) and tell me which one of the 2 AVRs is showing digital audible distortion?

This album is recorded with a very high dynamic.
My Yamaha (RX-A700) does not show any audible distortion but my computer does time to time.
This is a real life test, very practical.

 

[Bear123]

Well, I believe you, but throw off a photo of two receivers! 4700 and AVR20 together. Pliz. I believe you personally. And test it. Believe me, there is a difference in the image and in the sound and in the setting. And yes, ARCAM is buggy a little more often. But when you get to know him, you'll forgive him.

This is your subjective opinion, which you are entitled to. Anish shared his subjective opinion, but he also backed things up with objective data showing a very high fidelity response. You prefer Arcam, but that doesn't mean it is factually a better product.

 

[Desmo]

View attachment 121821

It amazes me that someone paid a lot of money for an AVR. Then proceeds to aggressively respond to other members on how
a good AVR should sound. Only to discover in a picture that it would be a small miracle that he gets good sound with this speaker setup.

 

[nerdstrike]

Summary: I can't justify 2x cost of Arcam at all. The unit is still buggy, Apps are temperamental in connecting to the device, native 7 channel amps vs. 9 in Denon, no multisub support - requires $499 paid full bass management option (minidsp 2x4 + umik-1 costs <$200 and more flexible), no front HDMI. Personally, I didn't like Dirac corrected sound either.

bbbbbut what about the nice case? Doesn't that make up for... $1000 or so? I agree that Arcam really need to get their act together w.r.t. software. The grab-bag of components and apps they have combined to make their higher end amps/receivers just aren't reliable enough for the prestige one might historically associate with their brand. The android apps are an immediate write-off, at some point I stopped being able to get ARC to work, and I also struggle to get over the boot time(!) when I switch mine on.

I'm also unconvinced of the merits of their choice of AB amplifiers even if it has a bit more oomph available in 2-channel mode than the Denon.

If we take the gospel of this site that all amplifers sound more or less identical until they run out of juice, then the software/smart bits, the DAC quality, and the general usability are the only qualities that separate this class of products. As such, these niggles become a big deal when it comes to perceived value between Arcam and Denon. I'm happy with my SA30 for the 2-channel stuff it does well (including Dirac), but Denon are hard to beat in the multi-channel arena.