My apology for not knowing you said you had the manual.
In that case, if the manual says the gain is 28 dB, then you need 1.38 volt for the rated 150 W. Or if the input sensitivity is in fact 1 V, then the gain would have to be higher than 28 dB.
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Denon AVR-X4700 AVR Review (Updated)
- Thread starter amirm
- Start date
My apology for not knowing you said you had the manual.
In that case, if the manual says the gain is 28 dB, then you need 1.38 volt for the rated 150 W. Or if the input sensitivity is in fact 1 V, then the gain would have to be higher than 28 dB.
Does the manual say anything about the gain? If it is 28 dB then you are in great shape with the 4700 even if you can't use preamp mode because you need the internal amps for the surround channels.
Bridging is obviously a viable option if the impedance of the front 3 speakers are truly 8 ohm nominal nominal. I don't think you need to, as I think chance is good that the gain of that ATI amp is in fact about 28 dB.
GlennS
Member
The original manual says 28dB gain, 150W/ch, but it does not list sensitivity.
The sensitivity I had given earlier is from the same website that you had linked to, saying sensitivity of 1.0 volt, 28dB gain, and 60W/ch.
Okay then, I believe ATI much more than that link with specs from some unknown source.
So you are in great shape then because SINAD is in the 90's at up to 1.4 V anyway, even without disconnecting the internal amps. You should still disconnect the front left/right power amp channels, not that you have to, but it's easy and free to do.
My initial question may have been a bit too long winded.
Basically should I be worried about using this in stereo to listen to music via Tidal and Spotify until I purchase the speakers I want to make it 5.2.2 set up in the future (6 months plus time)
Cheers
Basically should I be worried about using this in stereo to listen to music via Tidal and Spotify until I purchase the speakers I want to make it 5.2.2 set up in the future (6 months plus time)
Cheers
I don't think so if you are sending the unit 2 channel stereo contents. In that case you won't be down mixing so the down mix issue should not apply.
I've upgraded from Yamaha RX-A1060 to Denon AVR-X4700H. The new unit is noticeably more compact and lighter. Subjectively the sound improvement is very noticeable on my NAD 804. Those at least 10dB (from RX-A1080 measurements by @amirm) in the measured difference can be heard! I am drawn to my old tracks again!
The receiver is in 5.1 (Bi-Amp) + Zone 2 mode, and the speakers are bi-amped. Audyssey setup is completed. The speaker impedance is set to 6Ohm. The Fluke IR thermometer shows 37C as the warmest point on the top cover (middle towards back) with 21C in the room and the volume at 50 for several hours.
The receiver choked on streaming the FLAC multi-channel audio. Changing output sample frequency did not matter. The solution was to add downmix to stereo DSP in Foobar2000. Did anyone experience this as well? The FLAC audio file in question has 88200Hz sample rate with 6 channels with 24-bit at 7241 bitrate (Goldfrapp - Supernature 2005) (https://www.sa-cd.net/showreviews/3321 ). The bad review of the audio is not a reason to reject playing it by the receiver!
Hopefully Denon will offer a premium 5.1 channel version with balanced analog outputs based upon X4700H and individual on/off control for each built in amp and will support more versions of audio formats...
The receiver is in 5.1 (Bi-Amp) + Zone 2 mode, and the speakers are bi-amped. Audyssey setup is completed. The speaker impedance is set to 6Ohm. The Fluke IR thermometer shows 37C as the warmest point on the top cover (middle towards back) with 21C in the room and the volume at 50 for several hours.
The receiver choked on streaming the FLAC multi-channel audio. Changing output sample frequency did not matter. The solution was to add downmix to stereo DSP in Foobar2000. Did anyone experience this as well? The FLAC audio file in question has 88200Hz sample rate with 6 channels with 24-bit at 7241 bitrate (Goldfrapp - Supernature 2005) (https://www.sa-cd.net/showreviews/3321 ). The bad review of the audio is not a reason to reject playing it by the receiver!
Hopefully Denon will offer a premium 5.1 channel version with balanced analog outputs based upon X4700H and individual on/off control for each built in amp and will support more versions of audio formats...
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Hi all,
With the help of all the great data and comments on this forum i recently upgraded my receiver to an AVC-4700h (EU model). First of several AV upgrades I am planning this year as my HT setup is close to 20 years old. The AVC-4700h is driving Martin Logan Request electrostats in the front, which I re-filmed and re-coated recently. I am very pleased with the sound with the Denon driving these 4 Ohm speakers. I left the setting for 8 Ohm based on the comments in this forum, and all is great.
I have a question about using streaming HD Audio. I have a Qobuz Studio subscription, which gives me streams up to 24 bit/192kHz. However, when i check with the front Status button it always shows Fs (sample rate I assume) of 44.1kHz or 48kHz. I never get higher bit rate on albums that are supposed to be 96 or 192 kHz. I cast to a 3rd gen google Chromecast dongle connected to an HDMI input on the AVR. I have also tried with a trial subscription from Tidal (Hifi with Master quality) and Deezer HiFi, and always the same limit at 48kHz whether I cast to the google dongle, use the HEOS app, or use Amazon fire TV stick on HDMI with Tidal app installed . Even when the TV screen shows I am getting 24 bit 96kHz or 192KHz in the Qobuz app or Master quality in the Tidal app, the AVR status button always shows 48KHz. The HEOS app never shows anything above 44.1kHz even the tracks are supposed to be higher bit rate. Any ideas what is limiting the sample rate to the AVR and how to get the real HD audio stream to play?
With the help of all the great data and comments on this forum i recently upgraded my receiver to an AVC-4700h (EU model). First of several AV upgrades I am planning this year as my HT setup is close to 20 years old. The AVC-4700h is driving Martin Logan Request electrostats in the front, which I re-filmed and re-coated recently. I am very pleased with the sound with the Denon driving these 4 Ohm speakers. I left the setting for 8 Ohm based on the comments in this forum, and all is great.
I have a question about using streaming HD Audio. I have a Qobuz Studio subscription, which gives me streams up to 24 bit/192kHz. However, when i check with the front Status button it always shows Fs (sample rate I assume) of 44.1kHz or 48kHz. I never get higher bit rate on albums that are supposed to be 96 or 192 kHz. I cast to a 3rd gen google Chromecast dongle connected to an HDMI input on the AVR. I have also tried with a trial subscription from Tidal (Hifi with Master quality) and Deezer HiFi, and always the same limit at 48kHz whether I cast to the google dongle, use the HEOS app, or use Amazon fire TV stick on HDMI with Tidal app installed . Even when the TV screen shows I am getting 24 bit 96kHz or 192KHz in the Qobuz app or Master quality in the Tidal app, the AVR status button always shows 48KHz. The HEOS app never shows anything above 44.1kHz even the tracks are supposed to be higher bit rate. Any ideas what is limiting the sample rate to the AVR and how to get the real HD audio stream to play?
Edited this message for clarity.
Streaming audio capabilities - Denon AVR-X4700H manual, page 317:
HDMI audio input capabilities - Denon AVR-X4700H manual, page 317:
For playback of multi-channel FLAC files, using foobar2000 software and a PC's HDMI (linear PCM) output is likely the best option. I have an old Denon DVD-1920 DVD-Audio/SACD compatible player, and while it does not output SACD's DSD over HDMI, I have successfully played back DVD-Audio "Advanced Resolution Surround Sound" tracks with the Denon AVR-X4700H.
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But why does not Denon bother implement support for multi-channel audio streaming into a multi-channel receiver?!? This and way the control software work probably indicate the 2020 Denon AVR software is years behind what's in Yamaha Aventage.
I look here (http://manuals.denon.com/HEOSAVR/ALL/EN/OKNRSYyjyxngva.php ). FFMPEG 0.8.3 and LIBMS 0.6.2 are from (ta-da!) 2011, i.e. 9 years old!
Dear Denon Engineers:
Please upgrade all software in AVR-X4700H to 2018-2020 level stack. As an example, the use of openssl-1.0.0d from 2011, if that's the case as per the above Denon's link for HEOS, is not acceptable in a networked device in 2020.
I look here (http://manuals.denon.com/HEOSAVR/ALL/EN/OKNRSYyjyxngva.php ). FFMPEG 0.8.3 and LIBMS 0.6.2 are from (ta-da!) 2011, i.e. 9 years old!
Dear Denon Engineers:
Please upgrade all software in AVR-X4700H to 2018-2020 level stack. As an example, the use of openssl-1.0.0d from 2011, if that's the case as per the above Denon's link for HEOS, is not acceptable in a networked device in 2020.
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Please let me know if I'm wrong
- If I have a AVR-X4700H with 3 Zones and I use the preouts to a 4308CI or 3312CI could the 4308CI or 3312C1 not drive another 3 Zones?
- If the AVR-X4700H has "Alexa" capabilities could the AVR-X4700H not trigger the 4308 or 3312 to play
- If the AVR-X4700H and the 4308 or 3312 are on the same network hard-wired or wi-fi, could I not control them all with the Denon Ap on my cell or ipad?
GlennS
Member
Most streaming devices such as the Google Chromecast convert most of it's audio to 48kHz. There are a few combinations where certain devices will deliver the original stream from a certain app. I know I got Tidal HiFi to stream unmolested with one of my devices, I can't remember if it was using the Amazon Fire TV Stick 4k or the Shield.
Most people look at the source app and see that it is sending hi res audio, therefore they think that the AVR is playing hi res audio. But as you have seen, in most cases it is being converted to 48kHz.
Same situation that happens with PC audio. Qobuz with Windows will show that it is sending out hi res audio, but it gets converted by the Windows audio controller.
According to the Sound United tech (I can't remember the guy's name that does all the Youtube videos), Denon HEOS streams hi res from Amazon HiFi. I haven't tried that yet because I don't have my X4700H yet.
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Good morning all
I invested in the Denon 4700 with a klipsch package and I am very happy with it.
The sound is punchy, detailed but it remains neutral and goes less in the treble than my old pioneer.
I'm going a few more tests and I'm going through the instructions to get the most out of it.
On the other hand, it is a model sold in France and I believe it has a bug
As soon as you turn on the denon, the volume is at 0. (I have however set 20db on ignition in the options).
Do you have this problem as well?
thank you
I invested in the Denon 4700 with a klipsch package and I am very happy with it.
The sound is punchy, detailed but it remains neutral and goes less in the treble than my old pioneer.
I'm going a few more tests and I'm going through the instructions to get the most out of it.
On the other hand, it is a model sold in France and I believe it has a bug
As soon as you turn on the denon, the volume is at 0. (I have however set 20db on ignition in the options).
Do you have this problem as well?
thank you
This bug has been reported by almost all users. It should be fixed in a future firmware. Until it, you will have to set the volume when you power on the device to « last used »
The Fabulous Johnny Cash
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Hi all,
I’ve had the 4700 now for just over 2 months and I’m really enjoying it. It’s fantastic for Movies and even handles Music quite well.
The wife surprised me with a new Rega turntable for my birthday this month. Initially I wasn’t thrilled at the thought of testing out vinyl again as I remember giving it a go many years ago and deciding lossless audio was far more convenient and sounder better on the whole.
I knew I had to show my appreciation and give it another go and to my surprise I was pleasantly impressed with the sound quality!
Seeing as I didn’t have a dedicated phono pre amp available I chose to connect directly to the 4700’s phono input (before you say it I know using a receiver for music playback is a bad idea and especially when using the built in phono input).
I’d like to invest in a better quality pre amp and eventually a dedicated 2ch amplifier but until then I’ll make use of the phone input on the 4700.
I was sat testing tonight having upgraded the drive belt, mat and cartridge when I noticed the 4700 exhibiting strange behaviour.
I have the Panasonic UB9000 hooked up to the 4700 via hdmi for movies and rca for music. I was doing some A/B testing through the 4700 switching between the phono input (turntable) and the rca analogue input CD (9000). Obviously there was a big difference between the volume levels of both sources, but I also noticed that when I had the phono input selected on the 4700 with no music playing from the turntable, I could clearly hear (if I put my ear up the speakers) the music being played back from the UB9000. I switched to the tuner input on the 4700 to rule out the sensitive phone stage and the audio from the 9000 was still there.
Is this some type of crosstalk between the analogue inputs of the 4700 and why is this happening?
I’ve had the 4700 now for just over 2 months and I’m really enjoying it. It’s fantastic for Movies and even handles Music quite well.
The wife surprised me with a new Rega turntable for my birthday this month. Initially I wasn’t thrilled at the thought of testing out vinyl again as I remember giving it a go many years ago and deciding lossless audio was far more convenient and sounder better on the whole.
I knew I had to show my appreciation and give it another go and to my surprise I was pleasantly impressed with the sound quality!
Seeing as I didn’t have a dedicated phono pre amp available I chose to connect directly to the 4700’s phono input (before you say it I know using a receiver for music playback is a bad idea and especially when using the built in phono input).
I’d like to invest in a better quality pre amp and eventually a dedicated 2ch amplifier but until then I’ll make use of the phone input on the 4700.
I was sat testing tonight having upgraded the drive belt, mat and cartridge when I noticed the 4700 exhibiting strange behaviour.
I have the Panasonic UB9000 hooked up to the 4700 via hdmi for movies and rca for music. I was doing some A/B testing through the 4700 switching between the phono input (turntable) and the rca analogue input CD (9000). Obviously there was a big difference between the volume levels of both sources, but I also noticed that when I had the phono input selected on the 4700 with no music playing from the turntable, I could clearly hear (if I put my ear up the speakers) the music being played back from the UB9000. I switched to the tuner input on the 4700 to rule out the sensitive phone stage and the audio from the 9000 was still there.
Is this some type of crosstalk between the analogue inputs of the 4700 and why is this happening?
One area where crosstalk might arise in any Denon/Marantz unit is from the switches and volume control used in their products. These are CMOS devices with lots of closely-spaced layers. There is capacitance between these layers. Capacitance suggests the opportunity for crosstalk.
A link to the datasheet for the 8-channel volume controlled used in Denon/Marantz AVR's and AVP's is below. The last page of the datasheet shows how crosstalk can vary with input characteristics.
https://www.njr.com/electronic_device/PDF/NJU72343_E.pdf
To see if the thoughts above apply to your situation, you could try switching inputs for the single-end sources. That will change the physical relationships between these sources in the volume control.
The Fabulous Johnny Cash
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Thanks for the quick response bigguyca, you slightly lost me at the single-end sources bit. What exactly should I try? Obviously the turntable will need to stay in the phono input for now, but I’m free to move the UB9000 to a different input for testing purposes.
I guess my main concern is this, when I purchase a new external phono preamp and connect it to the receiver through one of the standard rca analogue inputs, will I still experience cross talk between all analogue inputs or is the problem limited to the built in phono stage only?
Thanks in advance
RCA inputs are single-ended inputs.
Added:
The built-in phone stage and the RCA inputs all go through the same switches and the volume controls.
Just try various combinations of the RCA input with the turntable connected to the internal phone stage and see if there is any improvement. That shouldn't take long. Hopefully it will help. No guarantees; this is in the category of "might help."
Here is a copy of the crosstalk measurements from the X4700H measurements on this forum. This measurement is likely between the L and R channels, but would seem to apply to any channels. The conclusion was: "Nothing great." Perhaps not quite good enough for your use case.
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Would/can someone explain in plain language how the preamp/preout mode works vs using the internal amps? I've read from several other sources the actual words that the user can "turn off" the internal amps for use with external amps. What I'm understanding from the test in this form is that the if some and not all of the internal amps are used, the unused amps cause distortion AND if the AVRs are used in pre -out mode, the unused internal amps cause distortion in the signal being sent to an external amp. it's all about as clear as mudd for someone like me who is trying to understand whether I'll be getting less distortion using only 5 internal amps in my 5.2 speaker setup or if I will in fact just be sending additional distortion to an external amp if I use the preamp mode? It gets even muddier when considering 4 ohm speakers...if the amp distortion nearly doubles when connected to 4 ohm speakers, wouldn't it make sense to send the cleaner signal to an external amp that has much less distortion into a 4 ohm speaker? Is this a question I should be asking Amirm? If so, how do I get a question directly to him? Thanks.
I imagine you are referring to the Denon 4700 from this forum.
In principle for a 5.1 system it will not need external amplification, and according to Amir's measurements it will have a high Sinad, very little distortion, above Denon's reference volume (up to 1.4v, which corresponds to an approximate volume of 82 or +2 depending on the scale).
If you still want to add an external amplifier, in this model you can turn off the amplification for all channels, "all or nothing", it is the new "preamplifier" mode of the 2020 Denon and Marantz configuration.
This way , and with the appropriate external amplifiers, you can have a cleaner sound beyond 1.4v, but in normal use below the reference volume there will be no difference, and at a higher volume it will be difficult to distinguish.
Finally, you have the possibility of "disconnecting" exclusively the internal amplification of the front channels (L / R), if in the initial configuration you indicate that you have 11 speakers (even if you do not use all the channels), and connect to the preout outputs L / R of the avr the external amplifier. This won't add any noticeable noise or distortion either.
The question is when using external amplifiers without using the full pre-amplification mode, or if, for example, in addition to disconnecting and externally amplifying the front ones, you intend to amplify other channels, for example the center speaker, because the internal amplifier of the rest of the channels they cannot be disconnected (only the Denon x8500h can turn them off individually).
In any case, I think you shouldn't worry too much about all this, it is very difficult to see differences by adding external amplifiers after calibration, and from what we have already commented.
And if this really worries you, you can use either of the two methods discussed above, the full preamp mode, or the disconnection and external amplification only of the front ones.
With the 4 Oh speakers you will have no problem in a 5.1 setup, even if you use the avr's internal amplification. Only in the case of adding more channels, or in large rooms, you will need external amplification and you will have to take into account what we have commented before.
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