Denon AVR-X4700 AVR Review (Updated)

[casyjones3]

Are all the brand/codec stickers for adding color to the decor or until the 30-day return period or is it the audio equivalent of the plastic covers on the couches?

Color man other wise it's just to bland

 

[Bello]

Too bad there's not better venting over the top of the heatsinks where one could install a Noctua fan exhausting out of the case. Denon could learn a lot from looking at how to create positive case flow design from the PC industry.

Dust contamination is a major issue with internal components. I'm certain no changes will be implemented due to various legitimate reasons. These units are designed for Open air operation. Or air cooled closed cabinet / vented cool air across the top of the system, not bottom.

 

[raistlin65]

Dust contamination is a major issue with internal components.

Right. That's why I said positive pressure. That's how you do it in PC design, with filters on the intakes.

Note that this is common knowledge among people who configure and put together their own PCs. My guess is that Denon just hasn't gotten around to thinking about how now that they have moved to heavier video processing and more amps, it might be time to rethink their cooling solution and look to the PC industry where the problem has been solved.

 

[Atlantis089]

If your AVR is inside a locked rack style cabinet why couldn't you just take off the shell and run it naked just like your picture? Lots of room for fans there!

I could see that working just fine in my cabinet. All you can see is the front anyway. Lots of airflow.

Be careful if you open your avr whether to add fans or to leave it without structure, you will void the warranty at the same time.

 

[Vasr]

I was thinking of taking the top of mine (different Avr) and making a custom methacrylate laser cut one to show off the internals .

For Immediate Press Release
Denon unveils new case options for their line of AVRs
Renowned AVR manufacturer sets new leadership in case design and aesthetics with introduction of transparent cases and led lighting that responds to content being played.

VISTA, Calif. (July 13, 2021)—Denon®, one of the world’s leading manufacturers of high-quality home entertainment products, has uniquely responded to growing customer requests to ....

 

[Vasr]

Right. That's why I said positive pressure. That's how you do it in PC design, with filters on the intakes.

Note that this is common knowledge among people who configure and put together their own PCs. My guess is that Denon just hasn't gotten around to thinking about how now that they have moved to heavier video processing and more amps, it might be time to rethink their cooling solution and look to the PC industry where the problem has been solved.

One potential problem with the solution is that a design that depends on continuous use of filters requires frequent filter cleaning. Otherwise, it will get worse than not having it. This is a big problem with any equipment let alone 50lb+ units.

Most consumer PCs at home run with clogged filters and high temperatures and run loud because of it. My HTPC filters need to be cleaned every two weeks or at least once a month, otherwise it can result in 1-3db more noise from fans working harder and the GPU runs 5-10 degrees hotter.

 

[raistlin65]

One potential problem with the solution is that a design that depends on continuous use of filters requires frequent filter cleaning. Otherwise, it will get worse than not having it. This is a big problem with any equipment let alone 50lb+ units.

Most consumer PCs at home run with clogged filters and high temperatures and run loud because of it. My HTPC filters need to be cleaned every two weeks or at least once a month, otherwise it can result in 1-3db more noise from fans working harder and the GPU runs 5-10 degrees hotter.

Or just have significant positive pressure without intake filters. A lot of people run PCs like that, and don't get a lot of dust build-up because the dust just blows on through.

But yeah. Whatever way, it would require some cleaning maintenance.

 

[Bello]

Or just have significant positive pressure without intake filters. A lot of people run PCs like that, and don't get a lot of dust build-up because the dust just blows on through.

But yeah. Whatever way, it would require some cleaning maintenance.

You have pro's / con's to both solutions. Once again, I highly doubt Denon will take these steps. Open air is where they will stay because they just can without additional engineering / changes / R&D cost. Especially in a complex AVR, fans create interference, add noise to IC sign wave. Yea, Pure Direct? But crank up the integrated clogged fans, lol

 

[bigguyca]

@peng asked me to load down the pre-out and measure. I thought it would be more useful to just give the output imepedance:

View attachment 71697

It is fairly high output impedance. So don't load it down below 12 k Ohm.

When I tried it with severely low 600 ohm load, it naturally dropped a lot of output level but distortion remained good:

View attachment 71698

Please measure the preamp outputs in another Denon unit when driving low impedances, such as the X8500H that I believe you are now testing.

Since you ran these measurements I've found that at least the Denon X4500H and likely the X4700 have an IC opamp (NJM880) output buffer for the L/R preamp outputs. The measurements above test the drive capability of that opamp.

The remainder of the upper and mid level Denon units and the remainder of the channels in the X4500H drive the preamp outputs from the 8-channel volume control. It would be very helpful to understand the ability of this volume control to drive lower impedances since the volume control is used so widely Denon lines.

 

[Toni71]

I am using AV-receivers a long time. Every two years Ill buy one and sell the older one.
For the cooling, I always put a 200mm computer fan (12v. Adapter) on top of the receiver. With the airflow downwards.
With the 200mm fan there is so much airflow everywhere out of the receiver. It never gets hot.

I checked for dust build up. But that is not a problem. No layers of dust inside.

This way the Receiver feels colder than pulling the air out. Which is a lot less moving air than blowing in.

(How can i see the temp on the screen with the 4700H? Is that possible?)

And I am curious waiting on the down-mix fix on this receiver.

 

[peng]

Since you ran these measurements I've found that at least the Denon X4500H and likely the X4700 have an IC opamp (NJM880) output buffer for the L/R preamp outputs. The measurements above test the drive capability of that opamp.

I think (will have to triple check in case I missed something..) the X6500H and X8500H do not have the NJM8080 buffer for the FL/FR amps, I wonder why they would do it for the X4500H that is a lower model.

 

[SnausPockets]

My local video only called yesterday and told me my 4700 was in. I have it all set up and have been playing with it...I'm quite happy. I did audyssey wrong the first time(different beast than my 3808) because I didn't realize how comprehensive amp-assign is now and ran it in 9.1 in the initial setup...the excitement of a new toy blinded me! All the different speaker combinations were only noticed the second time around.

All good now and I have audyssey set to flat and boosted the center by 2 dB(too many rock concerts and years of playing counterstrike. My 50 year-old ears aren't what they once were). The upside is I can claim I didn't hear my wife tell me to take out the trash.

One new thing for me is the "LFC" setting where you can lower sub levels to not go through the wall. Any opinions on that function and how it changes the overall sound?

I have always used "Dynamic EQ" because I like what it does but never used "Dynamic Volume" because I don't like what it does. Any consensus on the use of LFC?

Up till now I have been manually turning down my subs at night for the kids/wife to sleep. I like the idea of using this function instead if it doesn't ruin the sound somehow like dynamic volume seems to do for me(subjective, I know).

My fronts were set to 40 l/r and 60 center(three identical speakers) but I changed them all to 80 like usual.

Slick new unit! Sounds fantastic. I am using the Outlaw 5000 with it to power the front stage and rear surrounds atm but will change everything when I decide on some atmos speakers.

Just an update...more to come. Any comments are appreciated.

 

[raistlin65]

One new thing for me is the "LFC" setting where you can lower sub levels to not go through the wall. Any opinions on that function and how it changes the overall sound?

It gets rid of the bass on all of the speakers and the sub. I've only tried it once (I don't need it), but it seems like it attenuates the bass a heck of a lot, enough where I didn't hear any. Makes it sound like the TVs we had in the late 70s/early 80s.

 

[peng]

Slick new unit! Sounds fantastic. I am using the Outlaw 5000 with it to power the front stage and rear surrounds atm but will change everything when I decide on some atmos speakers.

Just an update...more to come. Any comments are appreciated.

Base on specs and measurements, if you don't need that little bit of extra power, you may want to try using the internal amps for the front stage.

 

[SnausPockets]

Also, regarding the case and fans issue I have a sanus metal completely enclosed audio cabinet with access doors and fan-vents in the top. It is literally like a giant computer case and works the same way with regard to airflow and cooling.

Having built my own computers for 25+ years I know all about going positive pressure to defeat the dust issue..

Knowing how all the computer hardware is exposed and naked inside that case(exposed to the airflow) like your motherboard and video card, I can take that knowledge and apply to my Sanus cabinet and AVR...I can see how having the AVR without its enclosure inside a bigger enclosure would help greatly in terms of temperature. The components are directly exposed to airflow that way...like in the computer case.

Imagine having your video card or motherboard enclosed in its own little metal case with no internal fans inside the computer case...temps would be off the charts.

My audio cabinet is exactly like a computer case, fans included. But my AVR is enclosed in it's own case with zero airflow which kind of defeats the efficiency of my cabinet airflow.

Am I making sense here?

No, I am not taking off my enclosure...but it is interesting to think about.

On a side note, my current computer case(thermaltake core P3) is the BEST no-dust case I have ever had. It never accumulates any dust whatsoever and it is because it is an open air case mounted to the wall. The fans on the watercooler and video card blow away any dust trying to settle. The only way dust can accumulate is if I don't turn on my computer for awhile.

 

[Bello]

Also, regarding the case and fans issue I have a sanus metal completely enclosed audio cabinet with access doors and fan-vents in the top. It is literally like a giant computer case and works the same way with regard to airflow and cooling.

Having built my own computers for 25+ years I know all about going positive pressure to defeat the dust issue..

Knowing how all the computer hardware is exposed and naked inside that case(exposed to the airflow) like your motherboard and video card, I can take that knowledge and apply to my Sanus cabinet and AVR...I can see how having the AVR without its enclosure inside a bigger enclosure would help greatly in terms of temperature. The components are directly exposed to airflow that way...like in the computer case.

Imagine having your video card or motherboard enclosed in its own little metal case with no internal fans inside the computer case...temps would be off the charts.

My audio cabinet is exactly like a computer case, fans included. But my AVR is enclosed in it's own case with zero airflow which kind of defeats the efficiency of my cabinet airflow.

Am I making sense here?

No, I am not taking off my enclosure...but it is interesting to think about.

On a side note, my current computer case(thermaltake core P3) is the BEST no-dust case I have ever had. It never accumulates any dust whatsoever and it is because it is an open air case mounted to the wall. The fans on the watercooler and video card blow away any dust trying to settle. The only way dust can accumulate is if I don't turn on my computer for awhile.

Little insight, as it relates to a PC. The heat sinks on these AVR systems are a bit different, heat conductive aluminium vs a PC heat sink a bit different heat displacement, size shape. All you need is to have is (minimum 6 inches or more preferably) top system height clearance for air movement. That's it!

-Optional a sign "HOT do-not touch" lol If you add a filtered dual fan in the back, you should be ok along with all I mentioned.

What you're trying to accomplish is not to have the heat bounce back into the system (low ceiling, shelf) defeating the purpose of extracting heat. The heat mostly emanates from the front of the system. Push the air out in that direction so not to heat up the whole area. Do-not pass the air back in the opposite direction, if in a cabinet. Simple physics.

BTW- That thermaltake core P3 looks pretty cool. Last one I built was a Be Quite full tower, I cut 17mm glass, water cooled to the Intel multi core CPU and GPU, processor OC'd @ 33% , burn in test, stable!!! Heat Sinked M.2 's, Video editing UHD / playing a charm.

Hope that helps.

 

[bigguyca]

I think (will have to triple check in case I missed something..) the (1) X6500H and X8500H do not have the NJM8080 buffer for the FL/FR amps, (2) I wonder why they would do it for the X4500H that is a lower model.

(1) This is true and was stated in the post. That is why it is suggested that Amir measure one of those products, the X8500H being a logical choice, because it seems he has measurements of the X8500H in progress.

(2) Agreed, that is a tough question. I have no idea of the answer.

After you've figured that question out, then here is a tougher question: Why does the Marantz SR7013, which already has the HDAM output buffers, also have IC opamp buffers on the L/R preamp outputs. Just to be clear, the SR7013 two output buffers, one after the other. Again, I don't have the answer; this isn't a quiz

 

[SnausPockets]

Little insight, as it relates to a PC. The heat sinks on these AVR systems are a bit different, heat conductive aluminium vs a PC heat sink a bit different heat displacement, size shape. All you need is to have is (minimum 6 inches or more preferably) top system height clearance for air movement. That's it!

-Optional a sign "HOT do-not touch" lol If you add a filtered dual fan in the back, you should be ok along with all I mentioned.

What you're trying to accomplish is not to have the heat bounce back into the system (low ceiling, shelf) defeating the purpose of extracting heat. The heat mostly emanates from the front of the system. Push the air out in that direction so not to heat up the whole area. Do-not pass the air back in the opposite direction, if in a cabinet. Simple physics.

BTW- That thermaltake core P3 looks pretty cool. Last one I built was a Be Quite full tower, I cut 17mm glass, water cooled to the Intel multi core CPU and GPU, processor OC'd @ 33% , burn in test, stable!!! Heat Sinked M.2 's, Video editing UHD / playing a charm.

Hope that helps.

Interesting info.

Yes, I was actually expecting the P3 to be more of a dust issue, being in the open air and all, but it turns out just the opposite. As long as you run it, there's nowhere for the dust to get stuck.

Imagine a shelf in your room collecting dust over time. The dust settles there and accumulates.

Now imagine the same shelf with a clip-on fan pointed at it from 6". As long as the fan is working that shelf will never accumulate dust...it just blows away to accumulate somewhere else.

The Core P3 works the same way. I have had it for a couple years now and not blown it with a can once. And it is on display with all the LEDs and whatnot. It just doesn't accumulate dust...ever. I will never go back to an enclosed case.

Besides, it looks really cool mounted on the wall with a TV mount and the smoked glass dimming the color leds. The white version disappears against a white wall somewhat.....not a big black box on the wall...very clean looking.

Highly recommended if you are looking for something different.

So...I can't help but look at my audio cabinet the same way. You could take off the AVR enclosure, clip on a fan pointing in it and it will be cool and never get dusty.

Food for thought is all.

 

[SnausPockets]

Base on specs and measurements, if you don't need that little bit of extra power, you may want to try using the internal amps for the front stage.

I will change it over and let you know what I think a bit later today.

 

[raistlin65]

Interesting info.

Yes, I was actually expecting the P3 to be more of a dust issue, being in the open air and all, but it turns out just the opposite. As long as you run it, there's nowhere for the dust to get stuck.

Imagine a shelf in your room collecting dust over time. The dust settles there and accumulates.

Now imagine the same shelf with a clip-on fan pointed at it from 6". As long as the fan is working that shelf will never accumulate dust...it just blows away to accumulate somewhere else.

The Core P3 works the same way. I have had it for a couple years now and not blown it with a can once. And it is on display with all the LEDs and whatnot. It just doesn't accumulate dust...ever. I will never go back to an enclosed case.

Besides, it looks really cool mounted on the wall with a TV mount and the smoked glass dimming the color leds. The white version disappears against a white wall somewhat.....not a big black box on the wall...very clean looking.

Highly recommended if you are looking for something different.

So...I can't help but look at my audio cabinet the same way. You could take off the AVR enclosure, clip on a fan pointing in it and it will be cool and never get dusty.

Food for thought is all.

I have a Fractal Design Meshify C PC case, which is known for having good air flow. The mesh across the intake area is not fine enough to catch most of the dust. It mainly would only stop something like a piece of carpet fuzz.

With positive pressure (since I learned all about that setting up my case this time), this case has had less dust problems than any of the cases I've had before. I checked it after a year. Very little dust built up inside, and my house gets dusty.

If Denon wanted to, they could build a positive pressure case design where it would rarely, if ever, have to be cleaned.