Denon AVR-X4700 AVR Review (Updated)

[Doodski]

What year was that? When Sound United took over they shut down almost all 3rd party repair access to Denon parts in the USA and started having Denon Reps push warranty repairs to Panurgyoem.com. Before that it was possible for repair shops to access parts. Sound United was a horrible step backward for customer warranty service. It's good to see them gone.

This was in the early to mid 1990s when we applied for and received Denon warranty service depot status. Great company by the way.

 

[amper42]

This was in the early to mid 1990s when we applied for and received Denon warranty service depot status. Great company by the way.

Denon was great back then. Huge corporate conglomerate take overs happen at the expense of the customer and the brand. If you want to watch a company decline look at it 18 months after being acquired by a conglomerate like Sound United.

 

[Doodski]

Denon was great back then. Huge corporate conglomerate take overs happen at the expense of the customer and the brand. If you want to watch a company decline look at it 18 months after being acquired by a conglomerate like Sound United. Their desire is simply to squeeze out every dime and sell it off to another sucker or discard it.

I see. I was not aware Denon was taken over in the USA or anywhere.

 

[Grandzoltar]

Sound united is rebranded as Massimo now. Maybe someone else knows more but I was under the impression that Denon has always been under the sound united stable and that it's was marantz and b&w that was acquisitioned by that company.

 

[amper42]

Denon has been owned by several companies throughout its corporate history. Let's look at Denon ownership since 2000.
2001 - Denon was spun off as a separate company with 98% held by Ripplewood Holdings and 2% by Hitachi.
2002 - Denon merged with Marantz to form D&M Holdings.
2008 - Bain Capital acquired D+M Holdings for $445 million in Japan.
2012 - D+M Group rebranded from D+M Holdings as part of an aggressive corporate makeover that included major shakeups across its top brass, reducing its independent rep count from 32 to 18.
2017 - D+M Group, was sold to US private equity firm Sound United. AVR prices increased significantly and service location options were revamped. Covid hit and parts availability became limited but interest in Home theatre had a resurgence.
2022 - Masimo closes acquisition of Sound United paying $1.025 billion which includes both Denon and Marantz.

After the acquisition of Sound United by Masimo, their stock price experienced a significant drop. It plummeted by 37% to $144.20 following the $1.025 billion acquisition of Sound United. This drop represented a loss of nearly $5 billion in market value for Masimo, with the stock failing to recover to pre-announcement levels more than two years later. These turbulent times at Masimo include a proxy battle with Politan Capital Management, which led to the election of two new directors to Masimo's board and raised the possibility of a sale or spinoff of the Sound United consumer audio division. The acquisition has been met with investor skepticism and concerns about the strategic direction of Masimo.

It will be interesting to see what the future holds. AVR prices are at all time highs. Covid is no longer the threat it once was. People are getting out more and the demand curve for AVR's may be slowing again. Was the Masimo acquisition a $5 billion dollar mistake? Time will tell.

 

[brettjv]

This is the funniest post I have seen all day. For years, Denon pushed customers to Panurgyoem.com for repairs and the horror stories from customers are legendary. If I was ever quizzed on which company had the worst warranty service record it would be Denon.

Mine is not a warranty repair, I'm paying good money for it. I got a call from United Radio within 4-5 business days of their receipt of the unit, telling me it was assessed, the parts needed were determined, and what the cost would be. They said it would be 7-10 days to get the parts, and that it would be fixed quickly once they arrived. I think today is 7 or 8 days since that call. I'll keep y'all posted as to how it went as I hear more. United Radio (so far) seems to have their stuff together, and their CSR's have been very friendly and seemingly knowledgeable.

 

[dlaloum]

Sound united is rebranded as Massimo now. Maybe someone else knows more but I was under the impression that Denon has always been under the sound united stable and that it's was marantz and b&w that was acquisitioned by that company.

According to the web, Sound United were formed in 2012...

Hard to track who bought who and when...

Marantz was owned by Philips in the 80's (& 90's?)

 

[brettjv]

Update on my AVR-X4700H repair. United got the job done in terms of the problem with the amp randomly going into either Audyssey setup or sometimes protection! Thing has been perfect since, with the exception of some CEC weirdness that I didn't used to have. The actual fix was described as 'fixed leaky power supply' and replaced a handful of diodes that were like $2.

As I described above, I also asked to upgrade the HDMI board so I could get 4K/120Hz through it. I have yet to test whether that works or not, but I have no reason to doubt it. At my request, they sent me back BOTH my (old) video board, and what I believe is one of the audio boards. So I may not have gotten what I wanted where I have the older, ostensibly better DAC's with the new video support.

Total repair cost was $375 for the diodes and two boards (the video board is HUGE and looks expensive). Guessing maybe it's just not possible to replace video board without doing this other board. Plus $225 for shipping both ways. Not cheap, but a lot less than even a 3800H, let alone a 4800H. Also I got the 4700H new for $1199 and no tax. So I'm not even into it for what a 'fixed' post-May 2021 X4700H cost MSRP ($1999). Feel okay about my decision to repair it. Thing was CHERRY other than the Audyssey problem.

Most important thing here is ... if you have the 'randomly going into Audyssey setup problem', send it United and they'll fix it, and it should be about $202 + shipping.

 

[amper42]

I have a few questions:
1. What was the repair turn around time from initial shipping to actual delivery back to your home?
2. Were there any extra dings in the chassis when you got it back that weren't there before you shipped it?
3. What did the shipping box look like when you got it back? Was it the same box as you shipped it in? Is it usable again or is it too fragile/degraded now?
4. What warranty did they offer on the repair?
5. The Denon AVR's are expensive to ship. What insurance coverage and carrier did you use?
6. What are the CEC problems you are experiencing?
7. Any pictures of the old boards?
Thank you!

 

[brettjv]

I have a few questions:
1. What was the repair turn around time from initial shipping to actual delivery back to your home?
2. Were there any extra dings in the chassis when you got it back that weren't there before you shipped it?
3. What did the shipping box look like when you got it back? Was it the same box as you shipped it in? Is it usable again or is it too fragile/degraded now?
4. What warranty did they offer on the repair?
5. The Denon AVR's are expensive to ship. What insurance coverage and carrier did you use?
6. What are the CEC problems you are experiencing?
7. Any pictures of the old boards?
Thank you!

1) Shipped from AZ to NY, travel was 6 days each way. It was back in my hands in about 24 days IIRC. Their communication via email was great.
2) Condition flawless when shipped, came back flawless.
3) Same box, yes (confirmed serial on label on box). I shipped it in only the original box (which was dumb of me), they shipped it back double boxed, outer box stuffed w/packing peanuts and they bubble-wrapped the original box as well. Denon box I shipped in still in same condition as it left, nothing wrong with it whatsoever.
4) I guess I should've checked what the warranty is, it's whatever United usually offers. I'd imagine it's 90 days but not sure.
5) I used UPS, so did they when returning it. I think I claimed the value at $1000 so I'm sure there was an upcharge for that but I don't recall how much ... but not that much.
6) Little things like if I switch on the PS4 when I have the Shield on, the Shield doesn't turn off like it used to. There's been a couple times when I turned on the Sony TV alone and the amp turned on, but then ended turning off as the TV was going through whatever it does when it turns on.
7) Sure, here ya go! If anyone knows how to tell whether the DAC must've been changed in this process (or not) let me know.

One other thing, they forgot to send me my boards back though I'd asked. As soon as I got the amp back, I emailed and said 'hey, wtf guys, those are mine!'. Next AM I got an apology email, and the boards were shipped (free to me) that afternoon. They were packed perfectly safely in a large box with lots of padding and in anti-static bags.

 

[amper42]

7) Sure, here ya go! If anyone knows how to tell whether the DAC must've been changed in this process (or not) let me know.

The Board image you have labeled as "4700H Other Board.jpg" with the VOP13103B sticker on it contains the DAC chips. You can see two white rectangles labeled CN24A and CN25A which list 27 parts each. It's interesting that certain sections of the board are labeled as 3700H and 4700H.

 

[alienmuppet]

Well, my experience with the X4700H didn't last long . It was an upgrade to my old X4100W (which fortunately I still have).

I got by X4700H B-Stock refurb for a good price (£799). Maybe a little too good.. First problem is the remote seemed to be a little generic (far less buttons than my X4100W remote, very light, and no zone buttons, though still Denon). Second problem was the AVR intermittently turning itself off (not protection mode.. no flashing lights). I did a factory reset which seemed to sort that out and removed the off timer just in case, though I've had one unexplained turn off since then.

Now the Surround Left amp seems to be screwed. It is much much quieter than the other amps. I thought it had cured itself today as the test tones sounded fine. Watched TV for a bit, tried it again and the fault had returned.

I'm sure I've noticed some strange crosstalk too.. and some distorition when using virtual speaker mode while streaming normal TV (like Masterchef on BBC IPlayer).. though that could be just be DSP trying to make sense of the source I guess.

Sooo I'm sending it back. And then need to decide whether to just step up and shell out for the newer X4800H (or perhaps X3800H), or see if I can get another X4700H at clearance. Or could be time to give Marantz a try. I am a bit dissapointed to hear about the DACs being changed, I'm almost tempted to try another brand (even though I realize I'd not hear a difference between the old and new DAC... there's something about just knowing its using something a cut above). Dirac might be something I eventually try, I find Audyssey a bit hit and miss, though that's probably due to small variations in mic placement. Audyssey is also very cumbersome - even with the app, and I find having to spend a lot for MultiEQ-X only for the license to be valid for ONE receiver abhorent. No idea re Dirac's licensing so that could be just as crappy.

 

[amper42]

A lot of Refurb Denon AVR's have problems. They say they are refuburished but they don't check every channel individually and every feature. They get returned for a reason. You might get lucky but the odds aren't good. The fact that you tried everything immediately upon arrival is smart. Too many don't see a problem until a few months after the return period. Then you're stuck dealing with warranty service which can last months. My best advice would be keep looking for a deal on a new Denon 4800H or even wait for the 4900H probably coming before end of year. Since you have something you can use, I would wait to buy one at a big discount - which will happen. Last Christmas season Denon was emailing out 30-40% off coupons so get on their mailing list.

You can also negotiate your own deal but it likely won't be as good as 30% off. But, it's worth a try. Offer $1700 purchase price (or your value) to all the online resellers - see what they come back with. You can also contact your local Best Buy and other resellers. Don't accept an average deal. They will know you are looking. Eventually something will show up.

I did the same when buying another RME ADI-2 DAC FS. I didn't want to pay retail. I emailed all the online stores asking for a 10% discount on an additional unit. Most said no - but enough said yes that I have a new one on the way.

If you are thinking of buying the Denon 4700H as it may have better DACs, that would be hard to achieve. The reason is only the first few runs of the Denon 4700H in 2020 offered the AKM DAC chip. The rest of the 4700H models used a TI PCM5102A DAC because of the Oct. 20, 2020 Asahi Kasei manufacturing (AKM) plant fire. It took three days to put out the fire. Denon 4700H units with the new TI PCM5102A DAC chip have a serial number of xxxxx700001 and higher.

 

[alienmuppet]

Thanks for the info That's pretty much reinforced my thought of avoiding refurbs at least for AVR. The main reason I wanted to update was:
1) Putting my blu ray player through the AVR (I got fed up of lipsync issues via ARC).
2) Being able to edit Audyssey curves.

I got by without this for a long time so yeah, maybe I can go back to that and wait. The lipsync issue was at its worst when using Dolby Vision, not so bad with HDR10+.. Also I don't think ARC from my TV has the bandwidth for uncompressed sound either .. but its not that big of a deal.

In the meantime I will keep an eye out for a good deal on a X4800H. I have found a good deal on a brand new X4700H - last remaining stock I guess.. its basically the same price as the X3800H, so that's a possibility (a few hundred more than my refurb but hey, at least I know its new and will.. should.. work).

Does the x700H series with the new dacs measure as well as the x800H series? I imagine they had more time with the x800 to refine the use of the new DACs?!.. Again, I'm not someone who worries too much about things like that, and totally understand placebo affect... I used to do a lot of sounds for bands and open mics. I remember once turning an EQ dial, and I was convinced I could hear the sound changing through the main PA speakers. Then I realized I was turning the wrong dial and it was doing *nothing*. Yep, we are totally fallable when it comes to perception so I avoid anything like that unless it is proven in a double blind test or measured. I also like to do this trick with smart asses at gigs who tell me I need to change the EQ. I pretend to turn the dial and they give me the thumbs up

 

[amper42]

Does the x700H series with the new dacs measure as well as the x800H series? I imagine they had more time with the x800 to refine the use of the new DACs?!.. Again, I'm not someone who worries too much about things like that, and totally understand placebo affect... I used to do a lot of sounds for bands and open mics. I remember once turning an EQ dial, and I was convinced I could hear the sound changing through the main PA speakers. Then I realized I was turning the wrong dial and it was doing *nothing*. Yep, we are totally fallable when it comes to perception so I avoid anything like that unless it is proven in a double blind test or measured. I also like to do this trick with smart asses at gigs who tell me I need to change the EQ. I pretend to turn the dial and they give me the thumbs up

The ASR Review shows the Denon 4700H (AKM DACS) with a SINAD of 97 while the Denon 4800 offers SINAD 95. Will you hear the difference? Probably not. However, the technology in the 4800 is expanded in several areas.

Denon 4800 Upgrades:

1. DIRAC Live Room Correction: The Denon AVR-X4800H supports DIRAC Live room correction as an optional license purchase for the X4800H.
2. 8K Video Support: The X4800H offers full 8K video support on all 7 HDMI inputs and 2 of the 3 HDMI outputs, whereas the X4700H is more limited.
3. Improved GUI: The X4800H includes a redesigned, higher resolution on-screen graphical user interface compared to the X4700H.
4. Additional Subwoofer Outputs: The X4800H has 4 subwoofer outputs, compared to 2 on the X4700H. That's expanded flexibility for multi-subwoofers

However, power output, audio processing capabilities and supported audio formats are similar between the two models. The $1000 price difference may not be justified for all users. But if you can purchase the 4800H on sale later for about the same price as a current 4700H, that changes the value equation quite a bit.

 

[Everett T]

A lot of Refurb Denon AVR's have problems. They say they are refuburished but they don't check every channel individually and every feature. They get returned for a reason. You might get lucky but the odds aren't good. The fact that you tried everything immediately upon arrival is smart. Too many don't see a problem until a few months after the return period. Then you're stuck dealing with warranty service which can last months. My best advice would be keep looking for a deal on a new Denon 4800H or even wait for the 4900H probably coming before end of year. Since you have something you can use, I would wait to buy one at a big discount - which will happen. Last Christmas season Denon was emailing out 30-40% off coupons so get on their mailing list.

You can also negotiate your own deal but it likely won't be as good as 30% off. But, it's worth a try. Offer $1700 purchase price (or your value) to all the online resellers - see what they come back with. You can also contact your local Best Buy and other resellers. Don't accept an average deal. They will know you are looking. Eventually something will show up.

I did the same when buying another RME ADI-2 DAC FS. I didn't want to pay retail. I emailed all the online stores asking for a 10% discount on an additional unit. Most said no - but enough said yes that I have a new one on the way.

If you are thinking of buying the Denon 4700H as it may have better DACs, that would be hard to achieve. The reason is only the first few runs of the Denon 4700H in 2020 offered the AKM DAC chip. The rest of the 4700H models used a TI PCM5102A DAC because of the Oct. 20, 2020 Asahi Kasei manufacturing (AKM) plant fire. It took three days to put out the fire. Denon 4700H units with the new TI PCM5102A DAC chip have a serial number of xxxxx700001 and higher.

One thing I've begun to notice is that many online retailers, ID Companies have moved their business model to be more inline with B&M store's type margins, minus the discounts.

Profit isn't a dirty word, but many retailers figured out that if people can't (or don't know how to) ask for a discount, because they're behind a keyboard and not in front of a salesperson, they're margins are actually higher than B&M store's after the discount.

 

[brettjv]

Well, my experience with the X4700H didn't last long . It was an upgrade to my old X4100W (which fortunately I still have).

I got by X4700H B-Stock refurb for a good price (£799). Maybe a little too good.. First problem is the remote seemed to be a little generic (far less buttons than my X4100W remote, very light, and no zone buttons, though still Denon). Second problem was the AVR intermittently turning itself off (not protection mode.. no flashing lights). I did a factory reset which seemed to sort that out and removed the off timer just in case, though I've had one unexplained turn off since then.

Now the Surround Left amp seems to be screwed. It is much much quieter than the other amps. I thought it had cured itself today as the test tones sounded fine. Watched TV for a bit, tried it again and the fault had returned.

I'm sure I've noticed some strange crosstalk too.. and some distorition when using virtual speaker mode while streaming normal TV (like Masterchef on BBC IPlayer).. though that could be just be DSP trying to make sense of the source I guess.

Sooo I'm sending it back. And then need to decide whether to just step up and shell out for the newer X4800H (or perhaps X3800H), or see if I can get another X4700H at clearance. Or could be time to give Marantz a try. I am a bit dissapointed to hear about the DACs being changed, I'm almost tempted to try another brand (even though I realize I'd not hear a difference between the old and new DAC... there's something about just knowing its using something a cut above). Dirac might be something I eventually try, I find Audyssey a bit hit and miss, though that's probably due to small variations in mic placement. Audyssey is also very cumbersome - even with the app, and I find having to spend a lot for MultiEQ-X only for the license to be valid for ONE receiver abhorent. No idea re Dirac's licensing so that could be just as crappy.

Hey, if you decide to get the X4700H w/new DAC's and decide you can't live w/o the AKG DAC, I know someone who has exactly the parts you'll need to upgrade your unit, stored in anti-static bags with a box already prepped to ship. For a fair price, too

As an aside, the X4700H is by no means the only model that can suffer from the issue mine had where it randomly goes to Audyssey setup mode and sound cuts out. As I researched the problem online I read that complaint about many other fairly recent models, and not just X700 series.

Other than that one thing, which was apparently a simple fix (and of course the snafu with the 4K/120Hz issue with certain sources in the pre-May 2021 models) I've loved my 4700H. That's why I paid to get it fixed.

One other thing not mentioned in the upgrades above for the 4800H is more granularity in terms of turning off its amp channels and running it pre-amp only. Personally none of those were important enough to me to spend $2299 (on sale) for a 4800 rather than a $600 repair (which would've been 425 w/o the new boards I opted for). If it had full-blown Dirac everything, at that price it might've enticed me, however.

 

[alienmuppet]

Yeah, I think I will hold out for a good deal on an X4800H. Or maybe even Marantz Cinema 40. Weirdly they are the same price here.
Other choice is black or silver. First world problems, haha.
Seriously though do the silver denons look alright?

 

[peng]

Yeah, I think I will hold out for a good deal on an X4800H. Or maybe even Marantz Cinema 40. Weirdly they are the same price here.
Other choice is black or silver. First world problems, haha.
Seriously though do the silver denons look alright?

For the same price, I 'd take the Marantz for the better look (subjective), and better build quality. So you must be located in Europe or the Fast East Asia? In the US and Canada, the price difference could be as much as USD1,000.

 

[alienmuppet]

For the same price, I 'd take the Marantz for the better look (subjective), and better build quality. So you must be located in Europe or the Fast East Asia? In the US and Canada, the price difference could be as much as USD1,000.

Yeah, I do like the Marantz. The small port hole is slightly annoying for my not so good eye sight that’s all - but in every other way I do prefer the look.
I thought I read the denon measures better though due to lack of HDAM?